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JAonF1 Team-mate Comparisons Part Two: Who finished 2018 on top?
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Posted By: Editor   |  09 Dec 2018   |  8:30 am GMT  |  391 comments

Whilst many of the F1 championship battles were concluded before the end of the season, there was still plenty to fight for between team-mates.

Some had secured their Formula One futures earlier in the year, whilst others still had a battle on their hands to prove that they still deserved a place in the sport.

So who managed to round off their campaign with a flourish, and which drivers were left begging for the season to end? Here are the verdicts for the final third of the season, to give us the final JAonF1 team-mate battle results for 2018.

Haas

Leading Driver: Magnussen

JA on F1 start of season prediction: Magnussen

A man capable of demonstrating driving racing abilities on both ends of the spectrum, Romain Grosjean spent the second half of 2018 clawing back some pride against his fast-starting team-mate Kevin Magnussen. He managed to claim qualifying honours over the course of the season, but the damage was already done in the points standings; 56-37 to Magnussen.

Haas themselves have been left to regret the driver and operational errors that have cost them fourth place in the constructors’ championship, but overall the team will look back on 2018 with pride, having taken by far their best result.

One of very few teams to keep the same driver line-up for next season, Haas will be desperate for more consistency if they’re to finish ahead of the likes of the ever-climbing Renault, a McLaren team striving for resurgence, or a Force India/Racing Point team with fresh investment.

Renault

Leading Driver: Hulkenberg

JA on F1 start of season prediction: Sainz

Whilst Renault haven’t quite had the headline-grabbing individual races that Haas (1 x 4th places), Force India (Baku podium) or Toro Rosso (1 x 4th place) have, their consistency is what has won them the ‘class B’ honours in this year’s constructors’ championship battle, only failing to score on four occasions.

Nico Hulkenberg has seen off highly-regarded team-mate Carlos Sainz over the course of the year, enjoying the better qualifying performances since the summer break. However, Sainz’s put in some strong race performances after being confirmed as a McLaren driver for 2019, reducing the points gap to sixteen points.

For 2019, Hulkenberg faces one of his toughest F1 challenges to date. With Daniel Ricciardo joining him at Renault next year, he has a big chance to reignite his reputation by – at the very least – matching a driver who’s regarded as one of the best racers on the grid.

Red Bull Racing

Leading Driver: Verstappen

JA on F1 start of season prediction: Verstappen

With Red Bull destined to do no better or worse than third place in the constructors’ championship, the tail-end of their season had a rather ‘experimental’ feel to it as they targeted individual race wins, picking and choosing when to use the riskier power unit upgrades, which weren’t even used by the Renault works team as they couldn’t guarantee their reliability.

Reliability problems – from Renault and Red Bull – hampered the team at various points after the summer break, with the lions’ share of the issues coming in Daniel Ricciardo’s half of the garage. Over the final eight races, only four events had both Red Bulls contesting the entirety of qualifying without gremlins – Singapore, Mexico, Brazil and Abu Dhabi – which resulted in qualifying being split 2-2.

If we’re being strict about comparisons between the two, then there are only two events where both Red Bull cars had clean qualifying and races; Singapore and Abu Dhabi. Max Verstappen finished ahead in both of these and was ahead of Ricciardo in Mexico before the Australian had a cruel hydraulics failure. Ricciardo received a post-qualifying grid penalty in Brazil, which hampered his race against his team-mate.

Verstappen had a great run of form in the final stages of this season; as well as claiming the Mexican Grand Prix victory, he was unfortunate to be taken out of the Brazilian GP win, and he finished on the podium in six of the final eight races, whilst Ricciardo was unfortunate not to end his Red Bull career without a podium since his Monaco Grand Prix win.

Ricciardo gave a timely reminder of his one-lap pace with Red Bull’s final pole position of the season in Mexico, but his departure to Renault means that Pierre Gasly will be given the tough task of coping with feisty Dutchman in 2019.

Ferrari

Leading Driver: Vettel

JA on F1 start of season prediction: Vettel

Despite Kimi Raikkonen taking Ferrari’s only pole position in the final eight races, Sebastian Vettel has unquestionably been the faster driver in qualifying over 2018, with the four-time champion generally being undone by unforced errors in the race.

Spins in Italy, the United States and Japan made Hamilton’s path to the drivers’ title easier, and Vettel will be left to rue the mistakes which have littered his season.

Despite generally falling short of Vettel’s pace, Raikkonen arguably enjoyed his best season since his return to Ferrari in 2014. As well as still being Ferrari’s last world champion, he leaves the team as their last pole-sitter and race-winner, departing the team to swap seats with Ferrari academy driver Charles Leclerc.

The Scuderia will be hoping Leclerc will put a bit more pressure on Vettel and help push the team on to challenging for higher honours next year.

Mercedes

Leading Driver: Hamilton

JA on F1 start of season prediction: Hamilton

Not looking to hide from his win-less year, Valtteri Bottas has described 2018 as his “worst season” in Formula One. Having been denied victories on multiple occasions at venues such as China, Azerbaijan, Austria and Russia, Bottas has also had a huge slice of bad luck which has made his performances look worse than they are. Despite this, he’s been completely unable to mount a regular challenge to championship-winning team-mate Lewis Hamilton.

He should really have taken at least third place in the drivers’ championship, but instead finished fifth behind Ferrari’s Kimi Raikkonen and Red Bull’s Max Verstappen, who spent the first part of the year unable to string two clean races together.

On the other side of the garage, 2018 turned into one of Lewis Hamilton’s most successful seasons in his career; eleven wins, eleven poles, 408 points and a championship-winning margin of 88 points over rival Sebastian Vettel. When Hamilton was eight points behind in a hard-fought contest after round ten at Silverstone, it seemed difficult to comprehend that he would win the title with two races to spare, winning eight of the final eleven races.

By: Luke Murphy

All images: Motorsport Images

Of the drivers mentioned in the article, who has impressed/disappointed you the most this season? Leave your comments below.

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1

Team comparisons

1. Mercedes
2. Ferrari
3. RBR

2

Can we still expect the usual “My JA on F1 top five F1 drivers of [2018 in this case]”?
Hope so, because the format of 2nd half of the season judgments led to some odd verdicts. I thought to be seeing Verstappen’s resounding 15-5 (15-6 depending) quali victory against Ricci at some place in the story, but no. Apparently the format enabled Luke to beat around the bush and obscure this fact.
Just compare with James Allen’s dec 2017 straightforward comment: “… look at the way he crushed Ricciardo (one of the fastest F1 drivers) in qualifying” (after last year’s 13-7 score in Max’ favour).
I even tested Luke’s analysis with a woman friend of mine who is totally not into sports – in fact she hates it. Took some convincing but I got to read out the editor’s text to her. To be sure, I changed the names: RIC became ‘Niki Riccardi’ (“a famous Italian driver”) and Max ‘James Hunter’ (“a British ladies’ man, very fast driver though”). I asked her who she thought had won.
“Well going by the description I think this one actually could be a tie. Hunter won on points but Riccardi won the tests!”
“The what?”
“The tests. The testing thing.”
“You mean the qualifications.”
“Yeah, sure. he definitely won those. I think.”
There you have it: Riccardi won the head-to-head quali competition.

3
Tornillo Amarillo

We can also see that Leclerc, Gasly, and Stroll are the only drivers who have stepped up on a better car for 2019.

Kimi and Sainz have just stepped down…

Plus the rookies: Norris, Russell, Giovinazzi, Albon.

And two “returnees” : Kubica and Kvyat.

Of all of them, I’m not sure if Gasly will fit well in RB.

4

For Kimi not to retire was much his own decision. And by the looks of it he was a bit tired of the Ferrari situation.

I actually believe he wanted this, and was very much part of the decision. He has the Alfa/Sauber 20 min from his home. And they are going to try to get the Alfa Romeo brand back for real again. And tha will be a new challenge for a driver that feels he have achieved most already and close to the end of his career.

And he will get even more room to be Kimi.

Regarding the rookies it’s a generational shift so that’s what happens. Let’s see who prevails…maybe there will be others coming in.

5

1. I think Sainz is over rated… thats it.

2. The VER fans who are praising him now because he “defeat” RIC only because RIC’s car many technical issues, are the same last year disregard RIC destroying VER because VER’s car many technical issues (coughdriver-errorscough)

6

I can’r really say how good Sainz can be, but he’s career in F1 is probably down hill or midfield at best from now on.

McLaren are not the best place for the moment. But he’s clever enough to know and recognize it himself, that McLaren isn’t going anywhere else than the midfield at best for the foreseeable future.

7

He belongs to the Tier-2 with racers like Hulk, Perez, Grosjean, KMag ( who are not bad by any means). Renault choosing Sainz over RIC is a reminder of it.

8
Folkert Eggenkamp

Dont quite get your 2nd point. Are you saying Max made driver errors last year that cost him points?

Dan didnt destroy Max last year, Max beat Dan on track while being struck by bad luck. Without the issues and dnf’s Max would have easily finished ahead on points

Dan has had horrendous luck this year and reliability was very poor, but Max was beating Dan almost every race.

Sainz is not overrated, Good driver, that is it. Not many people see him as a great talent.

9

you just made my point, max fans are open to excuse Max last year when he was beat by Dan because of “reliability issues and terrible bad luck”

but will not do the same statement this year when Max beat Dan because his “”reliability issues and terrible bad luck”

lol.

10

Joel,

There quite a difference in DNF in front or DNF behind your team mate… taken that in consideration the number of DNF’s don;t have much of an influence on how the driverss compare

11

Well if you look at the races and head to head battle between the 2, you would see that Max would finish ahead of Dan in points with or without DNF’s. In both years Max would have scored more points. Both had terrible bad luck, but Max was beating Dan in races way more often.
Dan sure suffered a lot, but it would not have changed anything other Dan getting a bit more closer to Max total points tally.

No excuses, Just the fact Max comfortably beat Dan in most of the races anyway.

12

Haas
KMAG was randomly off the boil at times but had a significantly better season than that idiot in the other car. Ro-gro’s flooring the throttle in the middle of the pack on lap one incident is simply inexcusable. Hats off to the other drivers around him for managing to make it not as bad as it could have been. I like KMAG, hope he improves again next season. He’s quietly been doing pretty well I think.

Renault
For all Sainz is highly rated (and with *some* good reason I think), I had a feeling the Hulk was going to be top dog this season. It’s possible Sainz is slightly overrated but it’s also my opinion the Hulk is underrated by many. It’s going to be very interesting to see how he goes against Dan next year. I think Dan might just shade it but it’s going to be a hell of a lot of fun to watch.

RBR
As expected. Max absolutely is the real deal in my opinion. As I’ve said in other comments, reliability aside, Max still wiped the floor with Dan this season. Given that he had a very dodgy start to the year it’s even more impressive to see how it ended up. He’s getting better. If the Honda gets them even slightly closer to the front next year, he’s going to be very hard to beat at times. The match up with Gasly is going to produce some major fireworks at times but mostly I think Max will have him more than covered.

Ferrari
I’d so love to know what is being said inside the team behind closed doors. Seb had the car this year, just not the brain. Bottom line, he just wasn’t good enough. As for Kimi, I’m sorry but he’s been a waste of that seat for many years in my opinion. I know many love him but I simply can’t see why. He was talented, incredibly fast, super cool under pressure and generally a great driver earlier in his career but all that seems to have gone apart from the odd days where he still looks superb. I’m really glad they’ve gone with Leclerc and I’m going to be fully behind him next season.

Mercedes
I feel desperately sorry for Bottas. I hate team orders, always have done. When all is said and done, really how much difference did it make? Most likely not enough to effect the outcome of the championship. Wrong place, wrong time really. And his seat can’t be at all safe with Ocon and Russell lurking menacingly in the background.

But hey, at the end of the day, we all saw one of the greatest championship winning performances in the history of the sport. I’m sure this will leave me open to the trolls but so be it. I know what I saw and I’ve seen what the almost unanimous opinion is from those better qualified to pass judgement than anyone in here.

🙂

Five times. Blessed!

🙂

13

Nicely put TheEx… I agree with pretty much all of it (!!) except the bit about Kimi.

I’ve been very critical of him in the past (2017 in particular), but this year Kimi was on it, and don’t think he can really be faulted performance wise. His third place in the championship is realistically the best that could have been hoped, absent a super dominant Ferrari.

I too wonder about what is being discussed in the sancta sanctorum at Maranello (or more likely in Turin)… I’m guessing that includes some of the following issues:
1. Seb’s mental strength. No doubt he dropped the ball too many times this year. But what to do about it? Who would you potentially replace him with? Hopefully Leclerc’s presence will give Seb the right level of motivation, without affecting the team harmony / dynamic.
2. What do we do about Arrivabene? He’s not team principal material, and previously was Marchionne’s marionette. Camillieri is more hands-off, and now that Maurizio is unshackled, will he be a liability?
3. What do we do about Binotto? Marchionne wanted him as TP, but he’s led the team to build a competitive car these last two seasons – can we afford to move him to a new role – particularly as we’ve allowed Simone Resta to go to Sauber…

I personally suspect we’ll see some changes at Ferrari before the next season. Hopefully involving an Arrivabene arrivederci…

14

Reline I’m not so sure that Arrivo was Marchionne’s marionette. In case you don’t count everyone in the Ferrari team as his marionette then I might agree.

Moreover if you had so much confidence in Marchionne, you should also feel confident that he placed the right person int the right place.

Arrivo has received a lot of harsh criticism for the simple fact that Ferrari could not mount a sustained WDC challenge against Merc. But that was not a fiasco.

That was not in fact a failure, from Ferrari. It was a small miracle that they could mount any credible challenge at all against the mighty Merc, and the climb up since 2015.

The only one that actually failed in any real sense was Seb. But as I have said the task was not insignificant. But still he messed up, and if one wants to have absolute numer one status in a team like he had, in getting the teams preference, then you can’t fail like that, preferable not at all. Not when you have a team mate like that, albeit towards the end of his career.

In the end we both have just slightly different views on many matters regarding Ferrari. But most of all I believe we share the same desire for Ferrari to prevail. They are part and parcel of F1.

15

Why the complete downer on Arrivabene redline? Sure he doesn’t engage the media and that’s a glaring fault in my eyes, but Ferrari are way better than they were before he was there, it’s his job to sort out the errors – not least Vettel this season and last., but also the errors by his staff. Binotto is a new risk, again he’s built good cars, but who is to say he can deal with race weekend pressure, and wasn’t he responsible for the badly directed mid season car update?

If anything it’s Vettel who is on shaky ground, two seasons in a row he’s cracked under pressure.

As for Kimi – he still didn’t beat Seb who has a post summer stinker of a season. Despite overwhelming facts some people still love the underperforming charisma free Finn.

Not sure where the Marchionne puppet line comes from. Pretty much all people were Marchionne puppets as that’s how bullies work, they terrify middle and upper management into not taking risks.

16

Redline wanted Ferrari to not give Kimi that chance to win at Monza for example I believe. He thinks Arrivo is to soft or something along those lines

Kimi DNF compenated, as well as the favourisme towards Seb, that Redline believes was not enough, would probably have put Kimi on par or even in front of Seb in points

Upgrades to Seb first, that’s not a small advantage.

Why favour a guy who blows his chances.

In one respect he’s right. Seb needs to be cuddled and pampered with it seems. Or he drives right into that redmist of his.

And for the upper-hand in quali it was down to the tiniest margins between the two of them.

Ferrari had a incentive to get Seb first in quali as well, or the result would have been like in Monza most of the times.

Kimi not Seb fighting for the victories most of the times

17

@PaulD…. Nothing against Arrivabene personally – and you are right that the team has done better in the last two years than previously, but let’s be honest – that was Marchionne’s hand. It was obvious who was making the strategic decisions at Ferrari; the re-structuring and ramped up investment that took place over the last few years was done under his direction. Those were key to catching Mercedes after the 2014/5 debacles. You may be right to call him a bully – his “Shut up. Stop talking” to Arrivabene being a prime example, but its more nuanced than that – he changed much at Ferrari in the way it operates – making it more agile, empowering younger engineers, and encouraging risk taking without the fear of repercussions. Remember when many predicted a Ferrari implosion when James Allison left…? Like him or not, there can be no debate about how effective he has been in delivering results – both inside and outside of F1.

Arrivabene seems full of passion, but I can’t see that he has the leadership qualities that are needed to take the team that final step. A clear example his year was how he dealt with the operational deficiencies trackside – which arguably played a part in losing the championship. A good TP would have resolved those double quick, and without public washing of dirty laundry. Maurizio? Post-qualifying Suzuka, he threw his men under the bus – you can imagine the effect on moral. Also his mismanagement of the drivers last year and this one cost the team a load of points. He needn’t look far to see how it’s done; the Mercedes and Red Bull are far more ruthless – and effective – in handling their drivers than Ferrari.

Vettel – I agree he has been sketchy, but who would you replace him with (assuming you can break contracts, etc..)? Realistically Alonso was the only top-tier driver available… but there’s an Italian saying about “minestra riscaldata” (re-heated soup…). And it’s also arguable whether Alonso’s character would have been a good fit for the team at this point. Pat Symmonds – who worked with both Schumacher and Alonso gave a very revealing interview recently. It may provide some insights about why Ferrari preferred to stick with Vettel.

18

Great post fella.

Kimi… agree with you. He’s had his best season in quite some time and deserved his position in the championship for sure. But I don’t think he’s as good as Seb and I don’t think anyone would say he’s as good as Fernando either. Bottom line for me here is that I just have so much hope that Leclerc is going to be the guy they’re looking for. But I only have limited hope that Ferrari will provide him with the environment to flourish…

Which brings me onto your three points…

1. Seb has some deep soul searching to do I think. Never would I have thought it would get to a stage where he looks so fragile, but indeed he does. There are quite a few times this season where it’s been quite clear his head isn’t in the right place. And it seems he’s becoming increasingly tired of towing the party line. From what I’ve seen from the last two seasons, it’s going to be a big ask for him to get back to his best. Especially if Leclerc is as good as it seems he might be. But obviously it’s a HUGE ask for him to make the jump even to Sebs level when he’s not at his best.

2. The only sensible thing I can see here is for Arrivabene to go. Honestly I’ll be surprised if he’s still there next season. But it depends how much sway he has. He turned down the offer from Juventus so it’s clear he really wants to be there. I just don’t think he’s the man for the job. Especially not if he can’t manage a difficult situation with his most important member of staff.

3. Agree entirely, moving him to TP would move him away from what he does best most likely. I think it would be the wrong decision. Like moving Newey to TP. Why would you? It’s not his forte. It’s quite the juggling act for Camillieri, Elkann and the other important folk. They really need to build an environment where Binotto can just get on with making a brilliant car. But can they? I’m very much of the “if it works don’t fix it” mindset here. Get a new TP and let Mattia just get on with it would be my decision. But what do I know?

Yet again, they seem to be in quite the self destructive pickle.

19

One can understand that they actually need to be more reliant on people from Italy, but long term that is not either a sustainable solution.

20

Maranello has good form with self destructive pickles. Only strong leadership can save them – either an autocratic and demanding figure such as Marchionne, or an authoritative / expert team like Brawn-Todt-Byrne. Early to judge Camilleri, but my impression is that he is a bit limp.

Arrivabene to Juventus would have been an excellent move – unfortunately he didn’t want to go, and for some reason Exor did not push it through. Too bad – hope he can deliver, but I am highly doubtful.

21

Redline

interesting post, I take it the ones asking these questions are the people upstairs, ie the Elkann clan… I’m not convinced they are motivated by anything other than financial concerns. They should NOT be running the team.

Binotto’s stock has suffered after the dodgy upgrades that slowed the car after Spa.

Arrivo and Vettel will not survive if, as expected, Ferrari fail again in 2019.

Finally, Leclerc better be a combination of Fangio/Clark/Senna plus Prost…..

22

Well if one is to believe the media and some other lobbyists then he must be.

But he could be in for a harsh awakening, or rather the ones hyping this.

23

That’s a rather fuzzy answer Phil Glass. Typical of those out of their depth, who can’t come up with a reasoned and cogent response. But hardly a surprise given your track record 😉

24

This deal has a lot of Todt fingerprints all over it rather than anything else. And maybe a few others.

I actually think Ferrari had set their minds on retaining Kimi for one more year before his retiring and even then go to Sauber/Alfa Romeo after that.

Something changed late in the season by the looks of it.

25

Ooh what a sweet talking guy you are Redline. 😻

Okay I promise to light a candle for Marchio

26

@Phil – the Elkann clan are an institution in Italy, and they are cognizant of the responsibility of being stewards of national symbols – such as Ferrari and Juventus. Obviously making money – or more precisely preserving and growing the family wealth is the core mandate of Exor – the holding company that controls Ferrari. But as you know, the F1 team does not make any money in a practical sense, so your assertion is a bit peculiar.

I’m not sure why you are critical of the Elkann’s – perhaps you could explain? John in particular is a very sharp operator – he was mentored by Marchionne for many years – and is widely respected in business circles. His inner circle at Exor – Suzanne Heywood, Alessandro Nasri etc… are also extremely highly regarded.

In any case, the Elkann’s do not “run the team” as you have stated – that’s what delegations are for. But they will clearly be consulted on strategic matters, and be involved in big decisions, as is quite normal.

Binotto’s stock has suffered? If that were so, why are a rival team (allegedly) trying to poach him….?

If Ferrari “fail” again in 2019, there will likely be some further changes in the leadership structure. As is normal, and happens regularly, with businesses (and F1 teams….) that fail to meet their objectives.

27

Redline there must be a fear that someone will poach him, Merc could put him on gardening leave, although unlikely.

Ferrari must have him tied into really tight contract, one would think.

Who would they replace him with?

28

@ Bae125

Yes, it does make better sense to try and get the best from wherever they happen to come from, rather than just limit yourself and go for the best from Italy alone….

29

@Phil. Interesting points, but, overall, I tend to see Ferrari as continuing to repeat their mistakes and ignoring their triumphs when it comes to success. It seems, in my opinion anyway, that Ferrari tend toward being “Italian” above all else and, when they go toward that insular mentality, they begin to slide. When looking at personnel over the years, the teams that had a more diverse group tended to be more successful. Any thoughts on that?

30

Redline

I don’t feel obliged to speak of Marchione in a hushed reverent voice just because he died. And I feel the decision to promote Leclerc into the team was his and it was wrong in that it was premature by at least a year. Why did the Elkanns insist? I guess the answer will emerge in time.

I am surprised that you think Binotto’s position is unaffected by the upgrades fiasco….. but if that is true, who then took the can for the fiasco?

31

I’m sure this will leave me open to the trolls but so be it.

Mate, it shouldn’t. Aussie Mark Webber who has raced against Lewis, and who’s a pretty straight shooter, recons your guy is the best in business since Senna. The only trolling you’ll get is from some Max supporters who think he’s already on a par with Lewis. Have to separate fact from mere unconscious belief.

32

Cheers Adrian. I actually really like Mark. And he’s become one of the best pundits we’ve ever had I think. There’s not much he says that I don’t fully agree with.

Max… I genuinely think he’s the real deal. However much he gets people’s backs up there’s no doubting his talent. As for raw skill, I think he looks on par with Lewis when he came into the sport. It’s just that pretty much all his learning is being done in F1 so all his mistakes are very public. But he’s some way to go before he gets to the level of Lewis or Fernando or Seb. But I think it’s just a learning process and he’s going to be right up there by the time he finishes his career.

Either way, I LOVE watching him. Yes he’s done some stupid things (and said some too) but he’s still just a kid. Long way to go yet.

33

Is it worth paying €59 / year for full access to AutoSport Plus or Motorsport.com?

34

F1 Reade4
No !! Bit of a rip off.
You might as well spend it on Virgin TIVO and BT Sports for free all channels plus Eurosport and Freesport plus a few Sky channels for free 😁
But I’m not into any pay tv anyway.

35

Motorsports.com has become the official mouthpiece of McLaren group… so if you’re a fan, may be worth your $$$

36

This really puts the value of James Allen’s annual review book in perspective. Who misses those?

He quit doing them after Vettel’s 4 WDC run ended. 2013 season was last. All these Lewis years…the sales would have been amazing James!

38

Yep 100 % agree LKFE
Not worth it !

39

Autosport Plus. I’ve been on it for two years, I’m not going to renew next season.

A lot of good stuff still, but wow they are filling it with rubbish this year – time after time there are stories about statistics, and ridiculous hypothesises about what would have happened if such and such had happened instead of what actually happened. A lot of rehash stories time and again, and a lot of headlines that have little actually substance based on a one liners from drivers. They can be really good, but there’s too much filler for me now.

And being unkind, while the video discussions can be good they mostly have perfect faces for radio.

I prefer my motorsport journalism to be more investigative, so I’m going to give Joe Saward my cash for next season.

40

Joe Saward…investigative?

Mr. I overheard in the WC that Apple is buying McLaren? No no…I heard in the cafeteria that Apple is buying Formula 1. No no…F1 car PU would have 1500MPG in real world…but I won’t tell you how or why and I won’t mention that this car would with PU would cost 2m. That dude is so full if himself….keep your money, spend it on beer and pee it out. Way better spend.

You want analysis of 2019? Here is it:

Mercedes win in a dominant fashion.

41

WC 🙂 🙂

Good analysis and summary of the guy

As well as he sways as soon as the money comes in from some of the WC’s visited for whatever reason he would get some

42

Actually reply to a comment I made by Joe Saward.

“Joe Saward

That’s fine. This is s blog. You can take it as journalism if you wish to do so, but it is a blog. Read the blog rules.”

You’re gonna pay money for a blog? Seriously? It’s a blog. Read his rules! It’s not journalism. After which, he proceeded to post a bunch of news by the way.

That guy is either lost in the spin of his own bull, or he has lost his integrity when he realized anything made for a show is fake, and since he participates in it…

Without doubt, this site maintained a level of integrity that few have, but that’s all behind us now. SOLD sign has been hanging in the front yard for a year already.

43

Journalism it is not, not in any normal sense. It’s a blogg as you and he himself proclaims when it suits him.

Still he boast about his journalism in a way that I believe he’s ls lost in his own bull. Maybe he once had an integrity.

Anyway that is all history now it seems. The whole reporting business about F1 has become cynic lobbyism and opportunism. Sadly.

44

Me too and read also Joe Sawards book “The Grand Prix Saboteurs” a few years back! Saward is often seen at the F1 races but honestly I dont know where or for who he writes? Do you have some insights on this please or a link? Too much hype, garble and fanboyish on many sites and limited/no facts apart from the few and apart one liners you mentioned…

45

Just like James here, he was bought out by Motorsport.com last year. He does a thing behind a pay wall for them now.

46

give Joe Saward my cash

@PaulD

I’ve been subscribing to GP+ for several years and I think it’s good value for money. I would definitely recommend it.

47

Whacha selling now C63?

48

Check your inbox.

@Sebee

How would that help? I haven’t received email notifications of a reply since forever 🙁

Perhaps MOD are trying to save you from further embarrassment. 🙂

49

I posted it for you C63, along with future plans, which include a Mercedes bike…MP4/14 of course. MP4/22 close second option, but you know, no V10.

Mod didn’t clear it. Check your inbox.

…and save it this time on your computer or phone. You can see they aren’t all that willing to post my awesome tribute bike on here over and over for your pleasure. 🙂

50

@Sebee

I’m not selling anything. PaulD mentioned Joe Saward and I thought I’d reply letting him know that I subscribe to GP+ (a magazine which Joe writes for). I think it’s good value for money so that’s what I said. I don’t care whether you or anyone else subscribes though – it makes no difference to me.

ps

Where’s the pictures of your nice red bike?

51

It’s a minor point in the scheme of things, and doesn’t undo Bottas’ miserable season, but if he hadn’t given up the win to Hamilton in Sochi, then the extra seven points would have lifted him to third from fifth.

52

To be honest I don’t think it is minor, as that the pivotal moment of his season. He was denied a symbolic win, which destroyed his motivation for the end of the season.

53

If Bottas had shown he could get past Max at the previous race, I do not think that the team would have done the team order.

Rarely played team radio shows that he was given five laps to catch up with and pass Max; and we have seen in the past where Mercedes have given their drivers time to speed up/ pass, before letting the driver through.

Should have let him have the place back though.

54

Bottas was denied a win, even those/the one he had fully earned by driving the best of any on the track that day!
That must hurt deep down, no matter how staunch and cold a Finn you claim to be. After all, you are a racer.

55

Toto was really adamant in his wing-man approach this year. Never seen him like that.

And it was early on in the season as well. Ferrari was a bit closer than earlier seasons, but still, it was a curious thing.

56

Might end up being the pivotal point in his career…
Some manager Toto turned out to be…

57
Tornillo Amarillo

Nico Hulkenberg has seen off highly-regarded team-mate Carlos Sainz over the course of the year”

Disappointed by Sainz, IMO he has shown not to be in the right state of mind this year, worried about the Red Bull binding contract maybe, taking too much comfort in Renault maybe, being beaten by Hulk, being “happy” taking un uncompetitive McLaren for next year… with a comfort of 2 years deal…
I would have liked he had beaten Hulk and show all his skills in that good car.
He needs to wake up quickly and drive to show himself to the top teams now because the DNA is never enough to succeed in any competition.
Being “highly-regarded” is not enough, you should just show yourself higher in the standings, show progress as Max did.
Sainz is being overtaken in expectations by new younger drivers like Leclerc, Norris, and Russell by now.

58

Goes to show you the impact of the way you are “treated” in any management structure. Carlos was fairly evenly matched with Max but look at the impact Max’s promotion had on both of them…

59

Sainz’s career doesn’t look too bright right now in F1.

The margins are small and it shows how important it is to get the right backing. Still I believe Sainz had a strong backing.

60

I really cannot understand your expectations for Sainz. I think he is a mediocre racer. All the hype is based on the fact that he beat Max in qualifying the first year at TR but to be honest, he never matched Max in pace and only because they ran out of races in 2015, he ended that year with a slight advantage in qualifying.

61

…so you saying if there were 25, 30, 40? races…Max would have beaten Carlos in qualifying -or how may would he need?
The Head to Head when they both finished was 6-5 to Max. Carlos had 7 dnf’s to Max’s 4.
They were the two closest matched teammates on the grid…with one exception…only one of them was given the mantle of future world champion….seemingly because he refused team orders and wouldn’t let Carlos through on a offset tyre strategy in Singapore.

62

Nice to see Kimi end his second tenure at Ferrari giving them their last pole, last win and fastest quali lap ever in F1 history

All this happened when the politics eased of at Ferrari, and revealed what could have been if they had started the season that way

Not to forget their last WDC, one of the few drivers that could withstand the pressure at Ferrari and prevail

63

Why do people persist with worshiping Raikkonen? He has been absolutely soundly beaten by Alonso and Vettel over many years. He’s been past his best for a long time. If he wants equal race treatment he needs to outqualify the other guy regularly – any sensible team would put race priority on the guy who is qualifying ahead consistently.

I just don’t get it. The actual evidence is overwhelming, yet people ignore it and fawn over his “personality”. He’s just rude 90% of the time, and until recently did zero to promote the sport he makes a very nice living from. Bizzare.

64

Fair point, if it wasn’t for the fact that all these things to promote the sport are either boring or cringe worthy.

The last time someone was genuinely funny and entertaining during a press conference it was Kimi. (at the expense of Max, but hey, funny is funny). I’ll take these little gems over the usual dribble.

65

Actually, if you consider the DNFs that were all not his own fault, he performed this year equally to Vettel (just a few points off).

But that is not the actual point: You question that people like Kimi although his is slower. Well, where is written that you can only like the fastest driver. I never much liked Hamilton, although he was the fastest driver (for which I respected him). Ham matured so much, that I actually like him now.

People like Kimi for his driving style, his demeanor, his respect for other drivers (hello VET and VER).

Ferrari also did not keep him for 5 years out of pity. After Kimi arrived, the Ferrari finally became faster again.

66

There is nothing mystifying going on PaulD, if you like facts just look at who’s Ferraris last champion, not to mention the only Champion at Ferrari among the ones you mentioned.

It’s not too complicated if you begin with the simple things

67

Chris, you could also look at another simple thing, that being that Kimi only really won that championship because Fernando and Lewis were knocking spots of each other throughout the season. If either of them had a number two and didn’t have to compete with their team mate, Kimi wouldn’t have won and the title would have gone to a McLaren driver.

68

As I said before, and so many have said as well.

McLaren had all the Ferrari data, all the goodies to go straight into the 2007 McLaren, and they knew all the Ferrari waeknesses.

How on earth can you even suggest that the Ferrari was a better car than the Ferrari.

Very much to the contrary my friend, very much so.

The McLaren was better even before they stole all the data, and then all that on top of it.

You get the picture?

Kimi won the WDC against Lewis and Alonso in a inferior Ferrari against a superior McLaren to be perfectly clear

69

Nope because Mc’Laren stolen data that year.

70

KRB

Just like this years Ferrari right?

That is only pipe dreams KRB

Kimi would have won the WDC in that McLaren like he would have when he was in McLaren, if the car had not fallen apart.

Now he did one of the most difficult things you can do in F1.

He won the WDC in a Ferrari in his first year. Not many have done that. And that car wasn’t really brilliant.

The Exigency if Alonso was so good he should not have had any trouble beating a rookie, when he himself was in his prime. May it be Lewis or anyone else. He was always in need of a little too much help from the teams he was in to beat his teammates. It’s a bit sad since he is very good driver no doubt.

Don’t forget all the data McLaren had From that Ferrari, so they had all the best bits implemented right into that McLaren as well. So there you go.

And anyway you want to put it Kimi won that year in the most difficult way to do it. It took the GOAT 5 years to do it.

Without demanding No 1 in his team, he won the WDC in and for Ferrari in his firs year there.

Just brilliant and something no one probably will replicate again.

71

Kimi would’ve crushed them both in that McLaren

Seeing as the Ferrari was a slightly better car than the McLaren in 2007, I fail to see how. I like Kimi, but he is not at the level of Hamilton or Alonso.

72

Kimi would’ve crushed them both in that McLaren

73

F1 is man against man, and he’s been trounced by his team mates for 5 years now? So what if he was the last Ferrari WDC? He’s not as good as Alonso and Vettel over the same period – and there’s no way to prove he was better or worse than them in his prime.

I was a huge Keke Rosberg fan, but he got trounced by Prost in his final season and I had to accept that Prost was better.

74

At the same age Shumi was defeated by Nico dobu want to say that Shumi wasnt the better driver? Remember he is of 40 now ! In same mercedes Hamilton was ahead of vettel n bottas was behind kimi we all know who is no 1 and no 2 in both of the teams

75

@Chris D

Kimi can be devastatingly quick, so long as the car is to his liking. However, as soon as the car is outside his narrow peak operating field he loses that speed. The snag is, that more often than not, the car is not within his narrow field of preference. That, whether you like it or not, is a weakness that is not shared with Alonso or Hamilton who can both drive round the sort of issues that slow Kimi down. They are both therefore the better/quicker overall drivers as a result.

76

Get over your Alo crush.

When reality hits you it hurts

77

PaulD Raikkonen hates media work so why he not be honest to himself and pretend to be something he isn’t I would not not define Raikkonen as rude but more brutally honest. Raikkonen is popular because he has a very word shy but blunt and honest demeanour and is not afraid to tell people what he really thinks . If he thinks a journalist has asked a question he finds stupid why should he give a respectful answer? Hamilton likes Kimi are you going to have a go at him too? Kimi as far as he is concerned is there to race and not there to please the the media . Kimi for the record has given something back to motorsport Double R Racing which competes in British F3 and F4 was founded by Kimi and his longtime manager Steve Robertson. Double R won the British F4 Drivers Championship this year. Kimi has given more to motorsport than you think.

78

You miss the point – Räikkönen does nothing to promote F1 which is declining due to paywalls. Instead of refusing to answer he could put some thought into it like Vettel, Hamilton, and Ricciardo. Or give gut feel reactions like Verstappen and Magnussen. Instead he wanders about pushing cameramen over, or telling people it’s a stupid question. The refusal to join in with post race podium conference banter is just another example. He puts zero effort into it unless contract time is around the corner.

Imagine if you went to work and had to entertain your customers, and then behaved like that – you’d be sacked.

Like it or loath it Hamilton puts way more into promoting F1, listens to questions and gives considered opinions regardless if you agree or not. Vettel is very funny, he puts effort and thought into it at the track and rightly keeps his family life private.

As an aside is Arrivabene reticent because his English isn’t so good? Not a criticism because if you’ve heard my French then you’ll know some people are terrible at languages.

79

Kimi just being Kimi has done more than most for F1.

One doesn’t really have to say more

Reality hurts PaulD

80

I think you’re giving the pressers way too much importance, PaulD. It’s all just hot air really isn’t it. I doubt what is said in press conferences has any major effect on how many eyeballs watch F1.

Kimi being in F1 promotes F1 regardless of how many cute jokes are going off in the press conferences.

The viewing figures would be worse this year if he wasn’t driving considering his very large fan base so I’m not sure what more you want from him. What about the others? Is it all Kimi’s fault?

Also, he did his job well this year and finished third in WDC with 4 DNFs. Vettel just failed against Lewis.

81

You seem to have real downer on CL16 because he is young – have optimimism and don’t be a pessimist . Don’t underestimate Leclerc

82

I wouldn’t be so worried about him ST. I believe he’ll be more than ok. If he can’t cope and deliver with all that backing then maybe it wasn’t to be anyway.

He’s better positioned than most young drivers are or have been for a long time

Still you’re the one that appears worried about him, despite that all the optimism you exude is well enough for both of us

He will get his chance, if not even a few more after that by the looks of it

83

I have a feeling he’ll have a reality check soon. He had some unimpressive errors that were brushed off to youth, and he may not have that luxury at Ferrari.

However, what’s different to all previous F1 eras is the simple case of PUs. These cars are way more software managed, easier to drive, and driver doesn’t mean as much. Consequently CL is not such a big risk for even Ferrari anymore. Not at all. They know this. That’s why they took him.

CL is too old to take youngest WDC record, right?

84

Yes he could be in for a harsh awakening indeed.

85

CL is too old to take youngest WDC record, right?

If it went into November then he would be 22 and a month. I think like Max he has until 2020 to win a title and scoop that “accolade”.

86

FanF1, do you really think Ferrari R&D and software resources compare to Mercedes software team? Ferrari maybe make 10k cars each year. Mercedes over 2 million. And don’t forget, there are serious diesel cheating allegations against Mercedes, so they know their trick software too.

Would you expect Mercedes software team to be 20x larger than Ferrari’s? That would make sense, right? And with all the R&D Mercedes did in the area of hybrids and electrics before the regulations even were introduced. Not even close to any other player in F1.

I told you guys, with double the wins, poles and fastest laps, Mercedes is the faster team. They have power in reserve in fact. Vettel and Kimi were working against this reality, and they often had to push the hardware to overcome the deficits against Mercedes.

87

@Sebee

More software managed and easier to drive yet Vettel still managed to catastrophically throw away an “easy” championship. I guess, with how bad Vettel drove in the last two years, Leclerc can’t do any worse.

Besides, Ferrari has been known to hold on to their drivers a bit too long regardless of their performances. Massa, Kimi and now Vettel, comes to mind. I won’t be surprised if Leclerc drives for at least 5 years at Maranello regardless of how he actually does.

What if Vettel is the one who’ll have a reality check like in 2014 when he was partnered with a much younger and less inexperienced but faster teammate. It’s a fact that Vettel has never beaten a younger teammate in F1.

I think we should see how 2019 pan’s out before we hand out verdicts.

88

Stephen,

True. Kimi is still in the stable. But CL making way for Kimi is game over for his career. I think Engine Modes will bail CL out just fine.

89

Sure he has made unimpressive errors but that’s part of being a Rookie Sebee Leclerc is long term project Arrivabene . Yes he will have minimum performance clauses like top 4 performance in the WDC – which based on the advantage of Ferrari and Mercedes over the rest is easily achievable. Ferrari will set set moderate and realistic targets for him . Should he not meet that target/those targets which I doubt he and Kimi will swap back for a year.

90

Copy!

Agree Chris.

91

Verstappen lead driver: rubbish, you couldnt have a more orchestrated result if you tried.

92
Folkert Eggenkamp

What do you mean? Verstappen beat Dan convincingly ever since the second part of 2016.

There was nothing orgistrated.

93

@Folkert Dan has not been beaten convincingly by Max. Ever.

94

@ragnar

To be fair, I’d say this season has been more than convincing.

As I posted below, removing reliability and only including races and qualifying sessions where neither of them had issues, the season looks like this:

Races – Max 8, Dan 3
Qualifying – Max 10, Dan 3
Podiums – Max 7, Dan 3

That looks very convincing to me I have to be honest…

95
Folkert Eggenkamp

Sorry to say, but he has. Every time they were both on track, Max was in front of Dan. Out qualified Dan 38-20, out raced him when both cars finished 19-11. Max was significantly better since the latter part of 2016.

Just look at what people say about 2017&2018, most people, websites, experts have put Max 2nd best driver both years, Dan was voted 5-7th.

96

But in 2017 Dan only beat Max because of Max’ 7 DNF’s and numerous penalies and issues on the grid and qualify. So you think Dan’s victory in 2016 and 2017 was very hollow as well?

But tell me, how would Dan beat MAx without those 4 extra DNF’s?
Max beat Dan pretty much every race since Monaco.

97

And yet this year is the only year that Max has beaten Dan in the points and only because Dan had 8 DNF’s, numerous grid penalties and issues like France where the front wing fell apart. At the end of the day that’s how it’s scored. So this year Max beat Dan but it’s a pretty hollow victory.

98

Orgistrated? Is that when you orchestrate and orgy?

99

I suggest you write a reply in dutch, s we can have a laugh too 😉

100

But if I write in Dutch most people won’t understand what I’ve written, since most readers here are English speakers.

101

Remember last year Verstappen car’s failure?

If not, Verstappen would have been the lead driver. Again.

I admit Ricci beat Vettel. Whatever cause, Ricci was supreme.

So all you guys should give Max what belong to Caesar. Max beat Ricci fair and square. And he will beat him again.

Simple as that. And by the way I love both Vettel and Ricci.

102

It like LH fans bringing up the fact that Lewis had way more, and costly, failures to Rosberg in 2016 but somehow that’s just LH fans not accepting he lost to Ros.

This kind of reasoning applies here also no?

(P.S. not saying you are a Max fan – and no issue if you are just pointing out that if a LH fan dated to use that line of defence for his loss at 2016 people generally ‘shouted’ them down as being ‘fanboy’ or something along those lines)

103

@Alan F1 – Verstappen had one more car failure than Dan last year. Dan had 5 mechanical failures and was taken out by MAX IN Hungary. Max had 4 car failures and crashed 3 times. Dan finished on 200 points. Max had 158. At 25 points for a win please explain how Max having one less failure would have resulted in him beating Dan and being the lead driver.

104

@Ragnar:

I hear that argument a lot, but that is just unfair to put it. You say Max crashed 3 times and took out Dan, but Max was taken out 3 times as well. Not his fault. And you forgetting the crashing Dan did in Q3 in Australia and Baku. Dan’s DNF in Australia was from P17 and probably his own fault for crashing in Q3.
Realistically Dan had 5 DNF’s that cost him points, Max 7.
Max has retired in a couple of races where he was P2-4 and when he retired Dan inherited the podium. So lets say Max finished P3 in Spa & Spain. That is 30 points for Max and – 6 points for Dan for dropping from P3 to P4.
Max 198, Dan 194 points.
Max was usually ahead of Dan when Max had to retire, he would have easily outscored Dan if they didn’t retire as much.

And even if we take 1 extra DNF.
We take Baku, a race where Dan crashed in Q3 and was very lucky 9 drivers ahead of him suffered some kind of problem that gave him the win. He did nothing special that race except his tripple overtake.
If Max didn’t retire, he would have most likely have won that race and demoted Dan to P2. That would be a point swing with 32 points and they would be equal on points, but with having 3 wins, Max would have beaten Dan.
Max was the lead driver in 2017, hence the teambosses and all major websites and experts voted him 2nd best driver of the year and Daniel just 4th or 5th best driver.

105

@Ragnar I have answered your question.
First of all it was 32 points, not 42.
Second of all: every time Max retired, Dan got extra points and other drivers retired as well. Max didn’t have that luck.

Take Baku for one: If Max would have finished that race, he would have been ahead Dan and would have won the race.
Dan: -7 points
Max: + 25 points.
They would draw on points, but with Max scoring 3 wins, he would beat Dan.

And Dan was robbed of scoring points 5 times, Max was robbed of scoring points 7 times. Just look at Dan’s podiums in Spain and Canada.
Max would have finished 3rd at least in Spain and Canada, demoting Dan to 4th.
Max: +30
Dan: -6.
Total score:
Max 198 points.
Dan: 194 points.

Without reliability issues for both drivers, Max would have scored much more points. Max was in front of Dan before retirement 16 out of 20 races.

106

You didn’t answer my question. How with one DNF more than Dan could he make up 42 points with 25 on offer? There was no way he was going to beat Dan in 2017.

107
Folkert Eggenkamp

Ps: I read what he wrote and admitted Max was helped by Dans misfortune, but ultimately, woth out reliability issues, Max would have finished ahead of Dan in points in both 2017&2018.

108
Folkert Eggenkamp

@Adrian: Dan crashed in q3, that is what I said. That crash in Q3 was the reason he started from the pit (or 15th at least.) his crash was the reason he couldnt score points. So it was 5 dnf’s for Dan and 7 for Max.

Ragnar asked me to explain how Max could outscore Dan, so I did. Dan finished ahead in the points, but Max was the better driver.

Dan did good, but he didnt beat Max on merit.

And the thing is that Dan fans have been blaming Max for all his mechanical issues and said it was Max driving style that caused it, but when Dan got the issues it was bad luck.

I am not sure what your last point is, but I for one always credited Dan, only said Max was better. It was as much the other way around as well.

Difference was when Dan retired Max couldnt get podiums because other drivers didnt retire as they did when Dan scored the podiums. When Dan scord many podiums, Max, Hamilton, Kimi and or Bottas had problems and didnt finish the race.

109

Not his fault. And you forgetting the crashing Dan did in Q3 in Australia and Baku.

You know full well that Dan did not crash in Australia in the race and Baku was a racing incident.

Regardless of what mathematical gymnastics you try to pull the fact is that Dan finished ahead of Max in 2017 in the points table.

Here’s a curious thing, when Max was having all those breakdowns in 2017 it was Dan who was securing the podiums and points to keep RB in the hunt to secure 3rd in the constructors’ championship and all we heard was how Dan was taking points of Max. When the roles were reversed and Dan started to DNF we hardly heard a thing about it from the Max clan. Poser W Head below has touched upon this.

110

Thanks Luke.
It’s a much nicer read when you put text under a Heading.

Also, a bit off topic, I started reading my latest F1 RACING magazine today which has an article about the newly proposed W Series, & it is 42 years since there was a female racing in F1.

111

Wow!

I’ve been edited for the first time.

I suppose there’s a first time for everything.

I had written another paragraph about Max, that was related to the above.

………… I wonder if I spelled hissy fit wrong?

112

I wonder if the VER fans will be cutting RIC some slack as last year for this article they kept on about reliability as why VER didn’t beat RIC over the season…

113

Hey W,

from the looks of your other comments, . . . . I’d say probably not.

114

Removing Dan’s shocking reliability this season and ONLY including races and qualifying sessions where both Max and Dan were unaffected, the season looks like this:

Races – Max 8, Dan 3
Qualifying – Max 10, Dan 3
Podiums – Max 7, Dan 3

115

Of course. But like last year you have to look at what the order on track was when the dnf happened.

And mostly VER was in front of RIC, even when RIC did not have a penalty.

This was also the case last year.

Also RIC took some results from VER because of mistakes VER made, like AUS, CHI and to some extent MON.

116
Folkert Eggenkamp

Sure reliability was poor for Dan and it cost him a lot, but Ax was ahead of Dan before Dan retired. Same as last year.

Without dnf’s, Max would have scored more points in 2017&2018.

117

@Folkert In 2017 Dan had 6 DNF’s. Max had 7. Dan scored 200 points. Max scored 158. How was Max going to score more points than Dan?

118

First of all it was 168, not 158.
And secondly, If Max would have finished the race in Singapore, he would have at least scored 18 points and Dan would have scored 3 points less.
Dan inherited many points by others failing, mostly when he was already behind Max.
Please don’t forget that Australia was technically a DNF, but he was P17 at the time. Max was P2 in Canada, how can you fairly compare that? Dan would never have scored points even if he finished the race, Max would have scored at least 15 points if he finished in Canada.
And remember, Dan didn’t score points because he crashed, it was his own fault.

119

1) It doesn’t change the tally of course, but my point was thet the tally doesn’t even matter. Max had just 1 more DNF, but lost more points because of his DNF’s. Dan fans continue to go on and on about “just one more DNF and 32 points behind.” that they fail to see the bigger picture, Max was beating Dan on track in 16 out of 20 races, that includes retirements and race finishes. The analysis was to show Max was better and would have finished ahead without DNFs. Pretty much everybody acknowledge this.

2) That is why I said it is possible. I don’t say it was because of the crash. You are assuming just as much.

3) almost all the analysis, experts etc have come to the conclusion Max was the better driver and was beating Dan for most of the year. They were a good match, but Max had a comfortable margin over Dan.

4) And I don’t deny that, He could have finished 2nd, but if Vettel didn’t have so many errors, Max would have been 3rd max. Like I said, it only made him stronger. Most of the mistakes were because he was trying to compensate the difference in cars.

5) They never said the exact words, but they did hint at it many times. And I think they are right, Dan knew Max had him beat on track since they teamed up and it would only get worse. Unless Dan made a major improvement, he would have finished behind Max race after race after race. Combine that with the uncertain Honda future and RBR leaning a bit towards Max, his departure was logica. Although Honda seems to have gotten their act together.

6) I agree, but in my opinon they have done to much and made it to safe.
But penalties are always a matter of opinion and it is good you and I and others disagree on it. How ever I still think the USA penalty was unnecessary. Let them race a little bit and give a warning instead of a penalty.

Cheers, merry X-mas.

(Nice to see reasonable Dan fans for a change, have only met vile, disrespectful ones.)

120

Folkert

Here’s what Christian Horner told Dutch publication Formule 1 when asked if he knew the reason why Dan quit RB for Renault: “Not really. “I’m still surprised, but I respect that he wanted something new.”

121

Folkert

FINAL COMMENTS

1. When I said it doesn’t “radically change the reliability question” what I was referring to is the official F1 DNF tally count between the two drivers for 2017 which is 7 to Max compared with 6 for Dan. No amount of analysis or re-interpretation of the facts is going to change that metric. If you want to argue that Max suffered worse because of his DNFs fine but that is another question.

2. With respect I don’t think you are in any position to say or even speculate that Dan’s car wasn’t properly repaired after Q3. I mean were you in the garage overseeing the repairs and noticed something that was overlooked? Obviously its a silly question but equally as silly as your speculation that something was overlooked. You have absolutely NO way of knowing. What you’re doing is questioning the competence of the engineers and mechanics seemingly to hold onto to your belief that Dan’s DNF was self-inflicted. I haven’t heard any F1 commentator even suggest that. Did you check RB race report as I suggested?

3. In relation to 2017 I’ve seen plenty of analysis to say, all things considered, Dan and Max were evenly matched that year. But if you want to believe something else fine. In the end it comes down to a matter of opinion and how each one of the KPIs is weighted.

4. Me referring to Max’s errors should not be seen as fan boy criticism. Marko is absolutely right. Without Max’s errors during the first six races this year he most likely would have finished 2nd in the WDC table and the team possibly 2nd in the WCC. Without these errors he might now have 7 race wins compared to Dan’s 5. This is a constructive and objective observation because it means that Max could have achieved so much more. As to your comment: “And 1 of them was actually a practice error.” If you’re referring to Max’s crash in FP3 in Monaco with just 10 minutes to go I think you’ve really missed a critical point. What was he trying to do? Break the lap record or beat Dan’s time? Don’t know but with Qualifying less than 2 hours away there was no need for such a helter skelter flying lap and the crash gave no time for his mechanics to fix the car in time for Qualifying. So what most likely would have been a P1 and P2 starting positions on the grid for RB (and possibly a Max win!!) was blown away because of that practice mistake.

5. “But do you agree with Horner and Marko that Dan left because Max was better and would beat him again next year?” With respect Horner and Marko never used those precise words and even if they had I wouldn’t agree. Renault went out and recruited Dan (in fact they wanted him a year earlier as part of an engine deal) to help them develop the car to enable Renault to compete at the front of the grid. Prost has said that Renault wouldn’t normally pay a driver $70mil over two years unless they saw some value in their investment. After 10 years at RB Dan wanted a change and this was an opportunity to be part of and contribute to a developing program on it’s return to the top of the grid. Whether this is achieved only time will tell.

6. I’ve been watching F1 on and off for the last 30 years and the most important change is in driver safety. Thankfully we don’t see the same fatality rate as we did in the past. Perhaps the sport is over regulated and perhaps the judgements of the Stewards lack consistency. However, the fact remains that a driver shoving another driver off the track and gaining a place or overtaking another driver while completely outside track limits are incidents which will always come under scrutiny of the Stewards.

Cheers again buddy!

122

@Adrian:

1) But it does change the outcome of the points total and amount of DNF’s don’t really matter, because you can’t compare them 1 on 1. Without DNF’s, Max would have scored more points. That was my point. Although I have to admit I am not sure what you originally said, because this site is quite unclear in its commentsection.

2) Doesn’t matter, it is wrong, you can check the official website. But fair enough, no harm done.
3) The point is that the difference in points was not because Dan was better, but because Max was mure unlucky. I believe Dan was comfortably beaten by Max since 2017 and track results back that statement.

4) That might be true, but Max suffered awful bad luck last year and it made him stronger. Max had an awful start to this season and he came bak stronger. Hill Does have a point, but Hill also has said Max performed better overall.

5) My point was that Max was the better driver in 2017&2018. Ragnar questioned me about how Max would have outscored Dan and I explained it. Without reliability issues Max would have beaten Dan for sure.

6) It is possible, they are not perfect and could miss something. This year Max FP3 crash cost him qualify and everybody blamed Max for his points loss, why can’t it be the same for Dan? So yes, engineers could have missed something.
But fair enough, I can’t proof it, but it is not impossible either.
7th or 8th. Overtaking is hard.

7) It was risky more from Max, but he was clear of Bottas and Kimi, just like Dan is. You are showing double standards by saying Max risk was unacceptable and Dan’s move was fine. This is beyond me, nobody blames Max for his move in Spain, only the Dan fans. And for the record, I can’t remember ( or seem to find) Anthony saying Max shouldn’t have done that or that that move was to risky.
The outcome was exactly the same, both retired while being taken out by another driver….Really dude, with all due respect, but you are completely 1000% wrong on this one. Dan contributed to his own DNF just as much as Max contributed to his DNF in Spain…There is no difference. And what about Hungary 2018? Overtaking a damaged Bottas on the outside? Unnecessary risk in your opinion?

8) I agree with Marko on that. Max was his own worst enemy in the first 6 races, but to be fair it were only 2 or 3 races he really messed up. And 1 of them was actually a practice error.
But do you agree with Horner and Marko that Dan left because Max was better and would beat him again next year?

9) true. uBut racing isn’t what it used to be. To much rules and unnecessary penalties. I don’t like it and neither do a lot of neutral fans.
Not sure when you started watching F1, but when I started racing was hard and fair. The same racing would have been penalized big time these days. BTW, no offence intended, just trying to make a reference.

10) Fair enough, but mostly Dan fans seem to get angry at Max and his fans for what ever. I just hope next year Dan gets a car to try and battle with Max again. Would have prefered him at RBR, best teammates for sre.

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Folkert

1. “You also reacted with some comments saying that Dan only had 1 more DNF and still 32 points ahead”. Check my posts again because I never said any such thing. I may have said that the DNFs evened out over the course of the year but upon reflection will accept that Max had one more DNF but this doesn’t radically change the reliability question.

2. I supported Ragnar’s 200 to 158 split because we were obviously referring to the same F1 web site that had that breakdown. Whether this is factually incorrect I don’t know but there was no intent on my part to intentionally deceive anyone.

3. Max scored points when Dan’s car failed in the second half of 2017 just as Dan scored points when Max’s car failed in the first part of the year. It’s a team sport and they were contributing equally to RBs results when reliability permitted.

4. Dan’s performance went “down hill” post Monaco this year largely because of the 6 DNFs he experienced. Damon Hill remarked that drivers who suffer a series of car failures lose momentum and confidence in the car which affects their performance. He would know because he was F1 WDC in 1996.

5. Trying to rewrite the points difference between Max and Dan by analyzing each race is a pointless task. It can’t be done with any accurate outcome given the many variables and scenarios to consider. Let’s leave that to the fan boys.

6. With Albert Park what you’re basically saying is that the mechanics may not have properly repaired his car or may have missed something. Er, I don’t think so. If you read Horner’s post race report he provides the reasons why Dan had engine problems firstly in the formation lap and secondly in the race.

There’s no hint at all that these two failings were related to Q3. With respect I’d give more credit to Horner and the engineers than your opinion.

7. In relation to Spain 2017 it was a very risky move by Max to try and overtake two cars in that corner and this was Davidson’s point. It was not a very risky move for Dan to get by Max in Hungary. The one factor that separates the two incidents is the OUTCOME. Dan did not contribute to his DNF but Max did. Max put himself in a potentially dangerous situation whereas Dan did not. Davidson is not “blaming” Max but calling it like he sees it. You disagree, fine.

8. You say I put Max down in terms of risk taking. No I don’t. The facts speak for themselves. The first 6 races this year and Marko’s words that Max needed to learn from his calmer and less error prone team mate speak volumes. Only recently Marko said that he had an in depth discussion with Max regarding the first 6 races this year which probably cost Max second place in the WDC and RB second place in the WCC. Fair call by Marko.

9. In terms of penalties drivers and their fans just have to live with them. You think Max’s penalties were undeserved ok your opinion. But when you shove someone off track and gain a place and overtake someone with all 4 wheels off the track you are going to attract the attention of the Stewards.

10. I agree the Max has copped a lot of unwarranted attention from some fans not all of whom are Dan fans by the way. I’m not one of them. Max is a future champion in waiting and just needs a good car to compete with Vettel and Lewis. Whether Honda comes to the party next year remains to be seen.

Cheers!

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@Adrian:

Where do I put Dan down constantly? I react to what Dan fanboys say about Max and the battle between the 2.
I pointed out that Ragnar was incorrect in his pointscores and then you came along and said I have to check the results again.

You also reacted with some comments saying Dan only had 1 mroe DNF and was still 32 points ahead, you even confirmed that you thought Ragnar was right about 200vs 158.

I read your initial comment and I agree with that. Dan had a great start and showed his talent, but since Monaco his performance wend down hill.

My point was that Dan didn’t beat Max in points on merit. Every result he achieved was incredible and on merit. He deserves credit for it for sure.
I was asked how Max would be ahead of Dan in points if they had equal DNF’s. So I answered it.

And yes, Dan earned his points, but I was trying to explain that Dan didn’t score more points then Max because he was better, he was scoring more points because Max suffered more from bad luck.

And yes, it is pointless to do that exercise, but you and couple of other Dan fans were trying to say Max would never have outscored Dan last year. And although it is impossible to proof, it is very likely that Max would have outscored Dan on points with no reliability issues.

“As to Albert Park: “Yes, I did initially say that and I still think it could have caused it.” Based on what buddy? What evidence do you have or is this just a cynical attempt to put Dan in a bad light? It’s quite reasonable to say, given his overtaking skills, that Dan could have finished well into the points without his engine failing. I would say the same about Max.”

Just to show you and Ragnar that the amount of DNF’s is not the same and some DNF”s for Dan had no consequence to his points tally. And based on the crash and the fact there were a lot of repairs going on, it is possible the crash damaged more than we knew. It is not unreasonable to think it really did cause the engine damage. I don’t put Dan in a bad light, I simply saying what I think. And yes, Dan is a great overtaker, but it is very hard to overtake on Albert Park. Max was stuck behind Magnussen and Alonso and they were 1,3 and 1,5 seconds a lap slower. Last year RBR was just about 1,1 seconds a lap faster then STR in 10th place, so no matter how good Dan is, it would have been very hard to overtake 7 drivers in front off him.

“In terms of taking risks. All drivers undertake moves that to some extent are risky but Max takes unnecessary risks which cost him. When Max’s season was looking like a horror show during the first 6 races this year (you said he “sucked”) it was Marko, yes Marko who said very publically that Max needed to learn from his “calmer” and “less mistake prone team mate”. This was Marko speaking not me and not critics of Max. The clear evidence is that Dan doesn’t take unnecessary risks of a kind that Max has taken this year and the first 6 races and Brazil are evidence of that. There is no double standard here. Baku was a “racing incident” which both drivers were responsible for. Dan was not solely responsible for what happened.”

Sorry mate, that is the perfect example of double standards. Max was taking out by Bottas, while Dan was taken out by Max. Dan took the same kind of risk Max did and he was taken out, but some how Dan didn’t take any risk?
Max didn’t take unnecessary risk in Spain either…Or not any more unnecessary then Dan’s risk i Baku and Hungary. I can’t understand why you would make a difference between Spain and Hungary. What Max did in Spain was 100% normal racing.

Or are you saying Brazil 2017 was evidence Dan also takes the same kind of risks Max did?
And Davidson can have his opinion, I don’t agree with him on this one. But he never blamed Max, he mostly said it was risky.
But the thing is that some how you try to put Max down and that Dan never does something wrong, eventhough the risks are about the same. Max was cleanly passed Bottas and Kimi, the same way Dan was cleanly passed Max. It was a risky move from Dan as well.

Concerning Brazil: Remember the penalty for Ocon? 30 seconds stop and go penalty, Max could have avoided it, but that is hindsight, he just didn’t expect Ocon to attack him so aggressively and so risky.
What about Dan’s risky move on Bottas in Hungary 2018? He could have avoided that by waiting a lap to overtake him.

“The simple reason why I don’t view Max in Spain with Dan in Hungary in the same light is simply because of the result. Max miscalculated and it contributed to his DNF whereas Dan made no mistake but was taken out of the race by Max. Simple as that.”

What miscalculations did Max make? The same as Dan you mean? It is exactly the same dude, seriously. Max was taken out by Kimi/Bottas and Dan was taken out by Max. Dan miscalculated in Hungary. Just look at where Max was and where Bottas and Kimi were.

“I get that your passionate about Max, no problem, I understand that. I’ve said positive things about him in my team mate comparison comments above but you haven’t done the same about Dan but tried to find reasons to put him in a lesser light compared to Max. My suggestion to you is try and be a little more objective in how you look at things.

Enjoy your Christmas!”

Well if you will be a little bit more objective as well, I might not seem as subjective. I am passionate about Max indeed, but it is getting a bit tiresome to read somemany people putting Max down and get irritated when Max is defended.
Just look at the comment from Ragnar, eventhough he is factually incorrect, 6 people like it. The points were 200vs 168, not 158.

Concerning off track: If a driver is off track, he should be slowed down by laws of physics and not by rules. USA 2017 was just stupid, it was a hard fought battle and he did nothing wrong. Lots of drivers left the track without penalty.
Japan: Well he was at fault, but the penalty was just ridiculous. He did join the track safely, Kimi just decided to go around him and put him self in Max path. He could have easily backed off and cut underneath and overtake him with a better exit.

Thanks, enjoy your christmas as well.

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Folkert

Ever since you’ve commenced commenting here your sole purpose is to prove that Max is “better” than Dan. Have a read of my head-to-head comparison above where I have said positive things about Max. How about you doing the same about Dan? Quite frankly I’m not interested in who is better than who. But your constant put down of Dan is tiresome. When Max’s car was breaking down last year it was Dan who was getting the podiums and points to put RB in a position to get 3rd in the constructor’s, which Max contributed to later. But all I got from you is that Dan “inherited” Max’s points or that his achievements were not “merit” based. Don’t you think that is either biased or unfair? A racer doesn’t “inherent” points he earns them.

Trying to analyse each race to adjust the points to prove that Max would have got more points than Dan in 2017 is a pointless exercise. For a start there are too many variables to come up with a truthful and exact figure. But if you want to indulge in this exercise to prove to yourself that Max would have outscored Dan in 2017 be my guest.

As to Albert Park: “Yes, I did initially say that and I still think it could have caused it.” Based on what buddy? What evidence do you have or is this just a cynical attempt to put Dan in a bad light? It’s quite reasonable to say, given his overtaking skills, that Dan could have finished well into the points without his engine failing. I would say the same about Max.

In terms of taking risks. All drivers undertake moves that to some extent are risky but Max takes unnecessary risks which cost him. When Max’s season was looking like a horror show during the first 6 races this year (you said he “sucked”) it was Marko, yes Marko who said very publically that Max needed to learn from his “calmer” and “less mistake prone team mate”. This was Marko speaking not me and not critics of Max. The clear evidence is that Dan doesn’t take unnecessary risks of a kind that Max has taken this year and the first 6 races and Brazil are evidence of that. There is no double standard here. Baku was a “racing incident” which both drivers were responsible for. Dan was not solely responsible for what happened.

In relation to Japan I think you better have a look at some vision of it because I don’t think you understand what leaving the track and not safely re-joining it means. Shoving another driver off the track and gaining a position is a penalty any day of the week. Remember last year where Max was given a 5 second penalty for overtaking Raikkonen while he was completely off the track and had to surrender 3rd place? Similar incident in terms of leaving the track.

In relation to Spain last year. I referred you to Sky Commentator Anthony Davidson’s video analysis of it. If you don’t believe me fine but his analysis is correct in my opinion. It’s something that Max could have avoided, no different to Brazil with Ocon.

In Hungary 2017 Dan “safely” overtook Max. He caused no contact with Max unlike Max’s hit on Vettel in China this year. All moves on track have an element of risk attached to them. This is the nature of F1 racing. A good racer eliminates taking unnecessary risks. Vettel failed to do this this year and it may have cost him a WDC. The simple reason why I don’t view Max in Spain with Dan in Hungary in the same light is simply because of the result. Max miscalculated and it contributed to his DNF whereas Dan made no mistake but was taken out of the race by Max. Simple as that.

I get that your passionate about Max, no problem, I understand that. I’ve said positive things about him in my team mate comparison comments above but you haven’t done the same about Dan but tried to find reasons to put him in a lesser light compared to Max. My suggestion to you is try and be a little more objective in how you look at things.

Enjoy your Christmas!

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But that isn’t even relevant. Max scored 168 points. I just amazed how many people liked your post and the post of Ragnar when you talked about 158 points or the amount of likes the post got where someone said that it is rubbish to vote Max for the lead driver this year.

I was asked How Max would have outscored Dan without the DNF’s. I just explained how Max would outscore him. Many Dan fans go on about “Just one more DNF and 32 points behind.” but that is not how it works.

But ok, fair enough, have to say this comment section is a bit weird and not really clear.
I think that a driver beats another driver on merit when beats him without the other driver suffering some issue. I.O.W: Dan only beat Max on points last year because Max retired in 7 races.
But yes, my opinion was that Max was the better driver and pretty much everybody shared that opinion. Based on the race by race results it is quite conclusive.

Yes, I did initially say that and I still think it could have caused it. How ever, no matter what caused the engine failure, Dan was unlikely to finish 8th. The point was, the DNF was not fair to compare to any of Max DNF’s. So I will stick with my comment and say Max had 7 DNF’s, Dan had 5. Besides, you can’t compare DNF’s 1 on 1. Max could have scored more points when he retired and Dan always gained a place and points. When Dan retired, he was behind Max anyway.

It was possible, but he would probably finished 8th or 9th. And now you are guessing what would happen.

Maybe Max should have, but that is the power of hindsight. Ocon was int he wrong.

“You don’t like Max being penalised by the Stewards, ok, your argument is not with me but the Stewards. He was FULLY OFF track before re-joining the race in Japan and in the process shoved Kimi off track and that’s why he was penalised.”

I don’t like the inconsistency of the penalties and often collisions are not worth the penalty, especially since some of the contacts are so minor that an extra penalty point is ridiculous.

He might have been fully off track, but he was on the kerbs or turf next to it, so I call that barely off track.

“Spain 2017 and Hungary 2017 are two separate incidents and you can’t compare them. In Hungary Dan passed Max and in a desperate effort to get the place back he locked up and understeered into Dan and was penalised for it. He wrecked Dan’s race. In Spain Max drove into a closing corner just after the start of the race. He wasn’t losing any positions but trying to gain two in one corner. He had the rest of the race to try and get past Bottas and Raikkonen so why try it so early in the race? “

Mate, this is what I don’t get, you blame Max for taking a risk, but don’t do the same for Dan? Why the double standards?
Bottas was passed by Kimi and Max and desperately tried to hold on. Max took a little risk, but it was a logical one. If Bottas didn’t make his mistake, Max would have been P3. He gave a lot of room to Kimi, so why even considering blaming Max for his risk?

Baku was about taking a risk, you try to make it seem Max takes unnecessary risks, but Dan does the same.

“Dan didn’t take any risk in Hungary. He passed Max without any contact but it was Max who was too impatient to get the place back and caused the contact.”

Again, Dan took the risk in trying to overtake Max on the outside there, he had the whole race to try and beat Max or even finish on the podium.
Like I said, Max passed Bottas and Kimi and Bottas took Kimi and Max out. I don’t get why you view both incidents differently.

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Folkert

200 158 here:

http://grandprixrankings.com/compare/2017-f1/ricciardo-versus-verstappen/

Now you have seen an F1 site that has it 200 158. Whether its incorrect or not it doesn’t change the points standings between Max and Dan for 2017.

No, I’ve never said that Dan was the better driver in 2017. I’m only responding to your claims that he didn’t beat Max on “merit” that year. It’s obviously your opinion that Max was the better driver but that’s up for another discussion.

Mate, you’re the one asserting that Dan hitting the barriers in Q3 caused his DNF in the race so therefore its up to you to prove it. The burden of proof is on you not me. I don’t have to disprove anything. By your own admission you are “guessing”. So unless you can come up with facts please don’t guess.

Simply not true that overtaking in Melbourne is “impossible”. For example, in Melbourne this year Dan passed Hulkenberg on lap 5 and Max passed Hulkenberg on lap 32 and there are other examples I could give you. Dan was to start P15 and would have been only 4 passes away from getting into the points against lesser powered cars so it was very possible to achieve if not for the engine problems he experienced.

You admit Max should have let Ocon go in Brazil. So we agree!

You don’t like Max being penalised by the Stewards, ok, your argument is not with me but the Stewards. He was FULLY OFF track before re-joining the race in Japan and in the process shoved Kimi off track and that’s why he was penalised.

Spain 2017 and Hungary 2017 are two separate incidents and you can’t compare them. In Hungary Dan passed Max and in a desperate effort to get the place back he locked up and understeered into Dan and was penalised for it. He wrecked Dan’s race. In Spain Max drove into a closing corner just after the start of the race. He wasn’t losing any positions but trying to gain two in one corner. He had the rest of the race to try and get past Bottas and Raikkonen so why try it so early in the race? Whether he was 100% innocent in relation to this “racing incident” is not relevant. What is relevant is that he took an unnecessary risk as identified by Anthony Davidson in his video presentation after the race. He’s a racer himself and should know what he’s talking about. Baku this year is completely unrelated to these two incidents and you are trying to make a connection. It doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

Dan didn’t take any risk in Hungary. He passed Max without any contact but it was Max who was too impatient to get the place back and caused the contact.

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@ Adrian:
Then check the official website to be sure. I have not encountered any site that has posted Max points score to be 158.

“To say that Dan’s superior points tally over Max in 2017 wasn’t based on “merit” is nonsense. All points, podiums and wins are on “merit”. If you want to push this line then by the same logic Max’s first win in Spain in 2016, where the two Mercs took each other out at the first corner, was similarly not based on “merit”. A good driver puts himself in positions to take advantage of circumstances as they present on track.”

True, Max had some luck and it wasn’t purely merit that gave him the win. But he did fairly beat all the other guys. Although admittedly he had some luck with the Dan strategy, but at the time that seemed the better strategy. They didn’t expect Max to hold out on the tyres so long.
But Dan had an enormous amount of luck that helped him get to score more points then Max. Sure, it was still Dan’s skill to bring in the points, but it wasn’t skill that scored him more points.You are trying to say Dan was the better driver in 2017? Pretty much nobody agrees with that.

“Initially you said that Dan’s DNF in Australia was “self-inflicted” now you’re saying that his DNF was “possibly” linked to what happened in Q3. If you don’t know for sure there is no point in speculating. You are really making a discussion over nothing. It’s the equivalent of discussing whether the Earth might crash into the Sun tomorrow. The engine problem initially put him a lap down and then he retired. Without that, and given his overtaking skills, he would most likely have finished in the points but probably not on the podium. So you cannot say that the DNF had no bearing on the championship table.”

The point is that Dan crashed in Q 3 and caused him to start P15. As great as an overtaker he is, overtaking is impossible at Albert Park. Even on fresher tyres and a superior car, Hamilton couldn’t overtake Max. Changes were good Dan wouldn’t get passed P11. Now you are speculating. If you don’t know for sure or for a fact, there is no point speculating., right?
And do you have proof that the engine problems weren’t caused by his crash?

“In Brazil Max was controlling the race and not under threat from Lewis who had engine issues himself so what do you mean he would have “lost time”? Time was not an issue but all he had to do was bring the car home safely and not take any unnecessary risks but he did and it cost him. This is probably what Toto is alluding to in relation to his comments about Max recently.”

Trying to pass Ocon again would have cost him time. I will admit it was better to let Ocon go, but a very few drivers expect a lapped car to unlap himself there, especially against Max. Ocon’s reaction after wards was also quite telling, he was making it personal.

“Sorry mate but by criticising the Stewards for penalising Max you are really making excuses for his bad judgements. I think you should take a look at the Kimi incident again because Max was a lot more than “barely” off the track.”

No, Max was barely off track. And I say barely because he was just couple of inches off track with 4 wheels.
And yes Stewards can get it wrong sometimes. The Monza penalty was just harsh and unnecessary, same fore the JApan penalty. A lot of people have already complained about the inconsistency.

“Spain 2017 wasn’t totally Bottas’ fault. It was deemed to be a racing incident which is where no driver is wholly to blame for what happened. This means that each driver had some degree of responsibility for what happened. The point here is that Max drove into a closing corner. Once again it was a risky move because Kimi and Bottas were already there and three into one don’t fit, especially being a corner.”

Max was 100% innocent. It is compareble with Dan in Hungary 2017. He was partly to blame for that as well?
It was risky, but what should he have done? Back out and loose more places? He left enough space for Kimi, he couldn’t anticipate on Bottas.
If Max bares some fault in the crash, Dan bares 50% fault in the Baku crash, Brazilian 2017 crash, the Bottas Hungarian crash in 2018.

“I don’t understand your constant reference to Dan and Hungary last year and trying to link it to Max taking risks. Max understeered into Dan and put him out of the race for which he was penalised. Simple as that.”

Dan shouldn’t have taken that risk to overtake Max. According to your logic and reasoning, Dan bore some of the fault for the crash as well. I bring up Hungary because you seem to think Max took Dan out, but you don’t think Bottas took Kimi and Max out.
If it was that simple, you would blame Ocon for Brazil, simple as that right?

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Folkert

One F1 site has it 200 to 168 another 200 to 158. Whatever it is still puts Max behind Dan for 2017.

To say that Dan’s superior points tally over Max in 2017 wasn’t based on “merit” is nonsense. All points, podiums and wins are on “merit”. If you want to push this line then by the same logic Max’s first win in Spain in 2016, where the two Mercs took each other out at the first corner, was similarly not based on “merit”. A good driver puts himself in positions to take advantage of circumstances as they present on track.

Initially you said that Dan’s DNF in Australia was “self-inflicted” now you’re saying that his DNF was “possibly” linked to what happened in Q3. If you don’t know for sure there is no point in speculating. You are really making a discussion over nothing. It’s the equivalent of discussing whether the Earth might crash into the Sun tomorrow. The engine problem initially put him a lap down and then he retired. Without that, and given his overtaking skills, he would most likely have finished in the points but probably not on the podium. So you cannot say that the DNF had no bearing on the championship table.

In Brazil Max was controlling the race and not under threat from Lewis who had engine issues himself so what do you mean he would have “lost time”? Time was not an issue but all he had to do was bring the car home safely and not take any unnecessary risks but he did and it cost him. This is probably what Toto is alluding to in relation to his comments about Max recently.

Sorry mate but by criticising the Stewards for penalising Max you are really making excuses for his bad judgements. I think you should take a look at the Kimi incident again because Max was a lot more than “barely” off the track.

Spain 2017 wasn’t totally Bottas’ fault. It was deemed to be a racing incident which is where no driver is wholly to blame for what happened. This means that each driver had some degree of responsibility for what happened. The point here is that Max drove into a closing corner. Once again it was a risky move because Kimi and Bottas were already there and three into one don’t fit, especially being a corner.

I don’t understand your constant reference to Dan and Hungary last year and trying to link it to Max taking risks. Max understeered into Dan and put him out of the race for which he was penalised. Simple as that.

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Folkert Eggenkamp

@Adrian: euh? Are you serious? Max scored 168 points. Ragnar is wrong.

@Mick: the point is that total points are easily influenced by events outside drivers control.

Dan’s dnf in Australia had no affect on his point tally or the possible points he could score, Max couls have scorded points in all the races he dnf-ed. It was 5-7 for the Dan-Max dnf count.

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@Folkert

That’s still 197 to186.

What’s your point?

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Folkert

Mate, you better check again. In 2017 Dan scored 200 points while Max 158. Ragnar was right.

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As I recall correctly, according to the DR fans, Max reliabilty issues were caused by Max when he was “overdriving” his car. Why should that not be a valid explanation for all the DNF’s this season?

Personally:
It is my opinion that DR, at this time, only beats Max when/where having patience is required. One-lap pace… race pace… all speak in Max’s favor at this time.

DR’s patience makes him ( at this point ) a more consistent driver than Max but the extraordinary achievements are lost because of that too. No real “highs” and no real “lows”.

Max, on the other hand, has less patience. That will bring him exceptional wins and races like Austin, Brasil, but also the lows like China, and Monaco.

Patience, however, comes with the years and the second half of the season Max showed that he is learning.

About Ricciardo’s DNF’s:
I had hopes for a nice Bulls fight this year but the unreliability of Daniels car spoiled that. A lot of DR fans think it may have something to do with sabotage but I really can’t see why RBR would willingly apply that stamp upon the team. The DNF’s were plain, stupid bad luck and I hope for Danny that next year he will be able to finish more races.

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A lot of DR fans think it may have something to do with sabotage

Any many don’t.

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A lot of DR fans think it may have something to do with sabotage

Well, not quite. But fixing Dan’s car was clearly not a priority for the team once it was established that he would not be driving for them next year. In this game of milliseconds, that still makes a difference.

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“not a priority for the team”?

Well… thats a big slap in the face to DR’s engineers. They were just as gutted as Daniel every time the car broke down, regardless of the cause.

After Daniels decision was clear, he obviously was an unwanted person at team meetings and not involved anymore with car development but thats a no-brainer.

Stating however, that his engineers were not longer interested in fixing his car is plain disrespectfull given the fact that also those guys have something to prove.

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A lot of DR fans think it may have something to do with sabotage

Just absolute desperation mate. The same people who claimed Max was the architect of his own downfall last season see Dan’s reliability this season as sabotage. It’s crazy… but VERY amusing.

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Season’s over, not much more needs to be said. Lewis transcended as expected. Objectively, Valtteri drove better than last year, the difference being ferrari had a superior car.

The common narrative is a driver of Rosberg ilk would’ve performed better, I however, disagree. Nico enjoyed a pace advantage to the field no longer available to mercedes and his meek wheel to wheel combat would see him often relinquishing places to the likes of max, vettel and daniel.

Bottas should be proud of his performance. Assisted in the acquisition of the constructors trophy, won the fastest lap award and is being paid millions to drive alongside a bonafide legend. A far cry from horrors of this and last years williams.

The only blemish on this years stellar performance remains the malarkey in sochi. As a devote, car carrying hamfosi – the error in q3 shouldn’t be overlooked. Had lewis executed as usual, none of the unsightly team order nonsense would’ve occurred.
#Hifive

P.s Did anyone catch kimi at the award show? LOL 😀 😀 I’ve never seen him THAT happy. They kept showing Minttu, as to say ” come get your mans” 😀

139

“The common narrative is a driver of Rosberg ilk would’ve performed better, I however, disagree. Nico enjoyed a pace advantage to the field no longer available to mercedes”

Didn’t Rosberg get something like 9 wins in his final season, meaning he beat Hamilton 9 times that year? On the back of three straight wins at the end of 2015 as well? Rosberg wasn’t too far away from Hamiltons level imo. He outqualified him far mor than Bottas does too. Bottas is a No.2, Rosberg was just an inferior No.1 when up against Hamilton, but too quick to play wingman.

140

Spud, it’s true that Nico won 9 races in 2016, but three of those came when Lewis had to start either last or well down the order due to poor reliability, leaving only six races where Nico finished ahead fair and square.

If we look at Valterri’s season he has finished ahead of Lewis three times, but don’t forget Russia should have been his and he was ahead in China, Baku and Austria before retiring.

He hasn’t had a good season by his own admission, but he has had a lot of bad luck as well.

141

and of course the times when he was instructed to let Hamilton past

142

david, times? Plural? I think you’re talking about Monaco right? The race where Nico was two whole seconds a lap slower than Lewis and skilfully turned a front row start into p7 at the flag in a completely fault free car? I’m surprised you want to talk about Nico’s most humiliating Grand Prix so often, it’s even more surprising that you bring it up in a discussion on the relative performance of Nico and Lewis, as the team order made no difference at all to the race head to head between them that year.

143

TimW, small correction but lewis was leading the austria gp when bottas’ retirement caused the virtual sc. Took the lead at the start.

144

Tim, I just think Rosberg was a quicker driver than Bottas. I know there are what if’s involved but I think Rosberg was a consistent threat to Hamilton over the course of a season and could put one over on him in qualifying. I know Bottas had some bad luck this year but it seems like he goes missing far too often.

145

Spud, maybe he was, but I don’t think it would have been enough to make any meaningful difference. Nico had his moments, but the truth is the occasions when he went toe to toe with Lewis and came out on top were very few and far between. A lot of the times that he did finish ahead were aided by unreliability or errors from Lewis, and Lewis doesn’t seem to make those anymore! I guess the only thing we could say is that Nico would definitely not have been relinquishing any wins for Lewis, so he probably would have been further ahead than Valterri….

146

To be fair, in those 9 races Hamilton suffered qualify issues in 3 races, had a race ending failure in 1. So did he really beat Hamilton in all those races or was he a bit more fortunate?

147

The editor of AUTOSPORT magazine has just compiled the Top 10 drivers of the year (just like the editor of the AUTOCOURSE annual), and just for the record, Bottas doesn’t make the Top 10!

The list was:

1) Hamilton

2) Max

3) Alonso

4) Vettel

5) Leclerc

6) Hulk

7) Ricci

8) Ocon

9) Gasly

10) Kimi

The AUTOSPORT editor dropped Bottas from the Top 10, because, in the editor’s opinion “there were too many times when his races unravelled and went backwards” and “was too hard on his tyres while Hamilton could make them last.”

148

I will omit gracefully Max being 2nd, but Ocon and Gasly and not Perez in the list, thats ridiculous.

149

Yes, think you are right about VB. He could have won in China, should have in Baku, would have in Austria (if his car had not broken down). Sad about Russia, think that was a mistake by the team. They probably regret it now….
Do think his seat is under threat from Ocon, though. Mercedes don’t really have anything to lose putting Esteban in the car, especially with the best driver on the grid in one car. Hard to see where VB might go, though… don’t think he can go back to Williams unless RK or GR prove a disappointment, which I don’t think they will.

All lining up for a great fight, next year. Looks like top 3 teams will be even closer. Also, the mid-field too. McLaren and Williams were bottom for most of this year, and I can’t see that happening again.

150

How could bottas have won austria, from behind lewis? He was overtaken at the start by both lewis and kimi, though got kimi by kimi in the end.

151

There will be an opening at Racing Point after Pérez gets his marching orders for running the bosses son off the road or into the wall and generally making him look bad… Nice guy Bottas will be the guy they need.

🙂

152

I would enjoy seeing VB at Haas. An open-minded team would do him well, and could provide much needed podiums.

153

Richard, I don’t think Valterri’s seat is under threat from Ocon, I think it is gone! Esteban could have been on the grid next year for Williams, but they turned him down because he would only commit for one year, what does this tell us?

Having said that, Valterri has done OK, he has lost a huge number of points through no fault of his own, and I don’t think anyone would go into that team and beat Lewis.

154

Max w.o.u.l.d.

155

he’d ask about what Max was up to more often than not

@Lemwill

Did he? I can’t say that’s how I recall it. Either way, you’re not comparing eggs with eggs. Lewis was in a championship battle and needed to balance risk with reward, play the long game if you will. Max, on the other hand, wasn’t in any sort of championship fight and each GP was effectively an FA cup final – all or nothing.

If and when Max finds himself in with a sniff at the WDC he will need to change his approach – if he doesn’t he will quickly find his chances evaporating.

There’s an awful lot of hype surrounding young Max – all his potential. But that’s all it is at the moment, potential. Over the many years that I’ve been watching F1 there have been a number of drivers who have been lauded as a future champion – yet most of them fell by the wayside. Let’s wait and see if Max can deliver before we just give him the trophy. After all, twice in 2018 he didn’t even manage to convert a pole lap when the car was capable, personally I’d like to see him walk before he starts to run.

156

TBF I have seen little signs that Lewis doesn’t really want it with Max. I’m assuming that’s because Lewis knows that he’s a risk to go wheel to wheel with, and the only guy he actually needs to beat each week is Vettel. You can tell he’s a bit weary though. Just hope he ain’t gone soft in his old age lol.

157

C63, when Lewis was in front this year (which was a lot), being followed by the usual suspects he’d ask about what Max was up to more often than not. Even if Vettel was up his tail he’d always ask about Max too or even first. In addition, Max was the driver who passed him most often, not Vettel. And we all remember his ‘I can’t get past this guy’. The mind games after the Ocon incident (‘you had more to lose’) didn’t come from nowhere either. Against just an upstart rookie they’d serve no purpose, a champion couldn’t care less. But here it was a combination of genuine advice and an attempt at inserting doubt – only appropriate towards a serious challenger.

158

Lewis fears Max, and Max fears Lewis not

@Lemwill

Do you mind me asking how you’ve reached that conclusion?

159

Lemwill, you think? I doubt it.

160

@SpudtwoOOo, still… Lewis fears Max, and Max fears Lewis not. It shows.

161

Lemwil you missed out the .n.t 😉

Assuming that there isn’t much between them regarding pace (which we will never actually know unless they are put in the same team together) Lewis is pretty complete as a driver at this stage in his career. He’s still rapid and has shown a lot of maturity when picking his battles this year. Max is still a liability wheel to wheel and I reckon lacks the intelligence to beat him in current form. I think he would need to go down the mind game route. Maybe get Jos to give Lewis an evil pip-eyed stare before he goes out on his final Q3 run.

162

I’m certainly sure that between Max Crushtappen and Bottas, any championship winning team would go for Bottas. Redbull tolerates Max only because Redbull is just aiming for wins not good consistent points to mount a championship challenge. I therefore highly doubt that Max would beat Lewis if Bottas couldn’t .

163

Bottas should be proud of his performance. Assisted in the acquisition of the constructors trophy, won the fastest lap award

Wow you’re easily pleased Oblah. He finished 4th out of the top cars and fastest lap award means nothing these days, whoever is on fresh rubber at the end of the race gets it every time. Several fastest laps of his where when he pitted an extra time after being nowhere in the race.

164

Exactly NickH !
Just as KMag and Haas proved when they wanted to make a joke out of the silly tire- and fuel saving circus where all are obliged to drive around in eco mode for most of the race. So KMag changed to new tires and easily made the fastest lap of the race in Singapore despite he was absolute dead last of all cars! More than 1 second faster than 2nd fastest race lap made that day by Hamilton!

165

It’d be wise to check the delta between SS and US. Something like 2 seconds.

166

Bottas should be proud of his performance?!

Quote from the man himself, when asked about this season: “So now at this point I am even more disappointed for sure. I think it is the worst season so far.”

Hopefully he’ll bounce back next year – doubt he’ll pull a Rosberg, but at least he needs to challenge Lewis consistently on speed.

167

Y’all acting as if matching lewis consistently is an easy proposition. Rosberg only looked good because of the pace advantage mercedes had, coupled with lewis having unreliability. With a clean season, 2015 happens to nico, every year.

168

Oblah you are delusional.

Hamilton is superior to Rosberg yes. But it was very, very close.
Sometimes the gap opened up on certain circuits and sometimes it closed up and Nico had the upper hand.

169

Flyfisher, it wasn’t close between them at all, let alone “very, very close”. Go back and look at the results, the truth is right there in black and white.

170

@Flyfisher

17 years. That’s how long it took for Rosberg to get the better of Hamilton, and when he’d done it he knew he’d never do it again….so he retired.

171

You’re right – it was never going to be easy to match Lewis, but surely the expectation was for him to be a bit closer? Bottas himself was disappointed, which speaks volumes.

But point taken – 99% of racing drivers would be in the same situation as VB…

172

after qualifying session, formula one should do a man to man with team mate battling with the same tire and the same amount of fuel.

173

With what purpose???

🙄

174

1.19.119

Fastest ever lap in F1 history.

Monza. 7 September 2018.

175
Clarks4WheelDrift

Great lap, assisted brilliantly by the slipstream from the number 2 Ferrari driver, Sebastian something, I think.

Quality strategy from Ferrari as per usual, sacrifice the title challenge to get pole with the other car #laughingstock

176

Everyone gets slipstreams. All the time more or less.

You should cancel every pole with your arguments then.

Ferrari can try to give Seb every advantage they can but they can’t get a slipstream to disappear. Although Seb probably wish that was possible, like a few other drivers when it’s not them benefiting from it, witch they most often do.

Fastest lap in the history of F1 by Kimi. That is the fact. Amazing

#brilliant #fastestlapinf1historybykimi #Kimifastestever

177

If you click below, you will notice the official fastest lap at Monza is 1:21.046 in an amazing car without a giant movable aero device that is DRS being allowed to be used to set that time.

DRS around Monza is basically doping.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autodromo_Nazionale_Monza

It looked a lot like this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3pYUu5Ka4iM

Then there is this. No moving DRS aero again, which I hope you admit is a huge advantage around Monza. Grooved tires. No extra gear in the gearbox like PU car had. No engine modes automating acceleration, braking bias, braking, etc.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YqYPU3MNqHw

Just amazing, in the purest sense of the word. Just seeing that one car around the track is worth the price of the ticket. Driver counted for double the input into the car performance package in this era you know? 20% of the performance was driver. Today it is 10% or less. That 10%+ taken away from driver is engine modes most likely.

178

‘no extra gear’ – what a ridiculous comment! They now have the additional gear to stop the need to change the ratios for each circuit. They used to change ratios to optimise top speed and acceleration. Monaco never needed the same top gear as Monza. Current PUs are also far more flexible in terms of power delivery so ratios are less important.

179

That is true. Those electric motors are instant torque and a killer first gear so essentially those 7 gears can be taller as a result.

Are you really saying that an extra gear is not a benefit to these PU cars?

Engine modes with the automated software deployment of ERS, controlled 1000 times per second for traction and slippage is not traction control? Recovery deployed by software to shift brake bias and apply various braking levels turn by turn is not better than ABS? Engine modes telling drivers when to shift?

If we only knew what these PU cars automated we’d think they are developing roborace right here in F1.

180

JonL, you’re wasting your time, Sebee has no clue how transmission systems work, and doesn’t care if what he says makes sense or not.

181

no extra gear’ – what a ridiculous comment!

@JonL

If Sebee was to appear on Mastermind, his specialist subject would be ridiculous comments.

182

Surely you have standards

@Sebee

People who put V10 stickers on a pedal cycle and drive Nissan Leafs don’t get to lecture others on standards – if they do they get laughed at 🙂

183

I’m pretty sure you said you used to drive a C63, and now replaced it with a V6 model. Surely you have standards and it would be an AMG, right? Or you just went right down to a C350?

I have to keep up on your product ownership? I have enough troubles with my own stuff that I really don’t need at all. I’m starting to admire minimalists to be honest.

Amazing how extravagant Formula 1 used to be, and yet, it was so minimalistic. V10, Gearbox. Fuel. Tires. 600kg. GO!

184

@Sebee

The fish in my pond have got a better memory than you. I have posted on here (more than once) what car I drive and it ain’t a C43. Try and keep up, there’s a good lad.

185

Oh look…another comment trying to discredit a valid point I’m by Mr. Mercedes gorilla marketing guy, instead if discussion and presenting counter points. At least JonL knows how to have a discussion.

Is it time to full up your C43 with premium C63? Or are you C54? C32? C3PO?

186

The question is: how do we get Liberty and the FIA to come back to their senses and give us proper single seaters back with sensible engines and sensible cost and sensible fuel allowances etc.

Any ideas?

187

Give up the storytelling that road car manufacturers alone are the reason F1 is the pinnacle of motor racing.

Just one thought

188
Clarks4WheelDrift

Get the manufacturers to ‘piss off’ to Formula E?

More independant teams and simpler engines, perhaps a Cosworth, but most importantly cars that can race each other.

189

Getting manufacturers to piss off migh indeed be something that we will have to eventually accept.

190

Get what you’re saying Seb, but facts are facts.

Was that lap legal? Yes!

191

It was legal.

As legal as F1 can ever be.

192

Legal? No Phil. If it was, it would be the record. That’s the point. Quali laps aren’t “legal”.

I also personally believe that FIA allows fuel to flow beyond 100kg/hr in quali for purpose of making the cars look quicker. No proof, my feeling. There is constant refueling, so no risk of running out if fuel…which is a scenario to be avoided in the GP. Better to coast than to stop in track out of fuel…is the moto.

And again..DRS is allowed in quali. Think about it Paul. DRS exists to improve following another car for purpose passing to eliminate disadvantages of aero wake for car behind. So why is it being allowed in qualifying for time gain instead? There is no passing happening. They are just allowing a movable aero device to make the cars look quicker the they otherwise would be.

193

Sebee, Ha ha, Drs is doping, but traction control isn’t?! You do make me laugh….

194

There is so much doping, as in artificial devices, in F1 that one can’t even know where to begin to look.

But then again there have always been these things, in one way or another. Depending on what you count as artificial.

195
Clarks4WheelDrift

Any traction control advantage or difference is NOTHING compared to the PU Party Mode Q3 differences in the past 6 years.

Maybe year 7 will see some natural development convergance (…ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha) 🙁

196

Luke. You are sinking deeper into the world of fantasy and things you don’t really understand. I have given you reasons why I think the Ferrari engine is at least the equal of the Mercedes, if you disagree with this point then it is time you came upwith your reasons why you think the opposite. If you can’t or won’t do that, then this discussion is completely pointless.

197

Are you telling me, Tim, that if Mercedes had 1000 Bhp and Ferrari only 900, that Mercedes would not be able to map their torque and power curves in such as way as to give the car roughly the same torque and power output as the 800bhp Ferrari without Ferrari knowing?

I find that hard to believe.

198

LukeC, actualky the answer to all of those questions is a resounding ‘yes’ apart from the dyno figures, but they don’t need to see those to know what Merc are up to. The teams all know exactly how much power the others have, they know exactly what modes they have available and exactly when they are using them. F1 is the most data driven sport of all, detailed study of gps information and acoustic analysis gives them all the information they need.

For us laymen, the only thing we can look at is who is on pole at the power circuits like Azerbaijan, China, Canada and of course the biggest temple of horsepower, Monza.

199

TimW,

Yes, he is suggesting that the Merc party mode is superior to the Ferrari one.

Also how does Ferrari know whether the Merc is superior or not. Do they have access to the Merc Dyno figures? Do they know the modes that Merc are using? Do they know how the Merc engineers program the torque and power curves for each race?

The answer to all all of those questions is a resounding “no”.

200

Clarkes, are you suggesting that Merc’s party mode is far superior to Ferrari’s?ferrari certainly don’t think that it is, but either way they don’t count as any kind of driver aid, quite the opposite in fact.

201

They have traction control now. Only it isn’t called traction control.

202

Sebee, time to stop wittering on about Teslas and face the truth, F1 cars DO NOT HAVE TRACTION CONTROL! You want them to have, as you are well aware what a dent these driver aids put in the reputation of both your beloved V10 era and even more beloved Michael Schumacher. The truth is though mate, Lewis, Seb and Max all have V10 approaching horsepower levels to control purely with the sensitivity of their right foot, even without the ers….

203

OMG Sebee, you really believe everything/anything that Elon Musk says?

Anyway, try reading the technical regulations – traction control is not permissible . Reg 5.5 onwards covers it.

204

OMG TimW, you really believe that engine modes aren’t optimized for traction?

Did you not see Mercedes PU guys explain how important the ERS instant torque is under acceleration and how they strategically have the software deploy it right out of a turn? Do you know why? If you don’t, look into why it was so difficult to get an accurate torque measurement of Tesla P100D on dynos. Instant torque. Dynos couldn’t compete with the power delivery. Listen to Musk on youtube talk about how Teslas achieve amazing traction and are darn unbeatable on ice or in snow. Why? 1000 measurements of axle rotation per second and ability to make 1000 speed adjustments per seconds to the wheel. Are you really telling us that Tesla applies their electric motor torque and traction in a superior manner to the way Formula 1 PU car software deploys ERS? You believe that is so TimW? Seriously…how can one discuss things with you when you deny the obvious logic and application of electric motors on the road? This isn’t a prototype, it’s a finished product on the road, and it’s able to do it without what is considered traction contril. Is it because you think it belittles Lewis? It doesn’t. This reality belittles all F1 drivers and F1 itself equally, so worry not about Lewis’ rep. That’s what I’ve been trying to tell you.

205

Luke. Maybe because wet weather tyres have improved in the intervening 12 years? Or maybe it’s because they were sliding around in both races, but you didn’t notice in the later one?

You can argue that all you like Luke, but yet again you aren’t coming with any reason why you believe that is true, I have seen and heard cars breaking traction on numerous occasions throughout this season, maybe if you had watched any of the races instead of your 7 minute highlight reels, you might have seen it too….

206

TimW,

Watch the wet 2008 Monaco GP and how the cars slip and slide under acceleration. Watch the wet 2016 Monaco GP and se the cars not slipping and sliding under acceleration. Why?

And I would argue that the control they now have with the CPU and ERS deployment is tantamount to traction control.

207

Luke, that would be called ‘traction control’ which is specifically banned under the rules and is policed very effectively by the FIA through the common McLaren ecu that all of the teams use. If you’re referring to some simple engine mapping to smooth out the power delivery, then yes the teams do this, just as they have for the last 25 years, but do they compromise the lap time to do it? No. Those power and torque curves are set at the optimum level, the drivers have to sort it out themselves, unlike in the V10 era when they just floored the throttle at the apex and let the electronics do it all for them.

208

TimW,

What would you call it when Lewis accelerates our of la source or the first chicane at monza, or any other corner, and the software engineers have programmed the torque curve in such a way as to enable him to effectively nail the throttle and the PU will deliver the optimum amount of torque to maximise traction?

209

Luke, no they don’t.

210

Was that in quali?

Doesn’t count. Not official.

Has everyone also forgotten the giant movable aero device that is DRS, which is allowed in quali, and which didn’t exist until 2011? Talk about apples to bubble gum comparison.

211

Sebee, quali laps are ‘official’….

212

Yeah, as you say TimW, ‘official’.

213

These records are jept, they go in the big book of results, they are official. Using race fastest laps is an outdated practice that gives no indication of which car is fastest at any particular track.

214

Sebee

What about the weight difference?

The cars now, must weigh 2/300 kg more. Just guessing.

215

What about that instant electric torque of those ERS motors James?

216

James, it’s 134kg.

217

30kg is a lot!

218

James, yes it’s a lot, not all of it comes from the PUs though. If a V10 car was built that satisfied all modern crash testing, then it wouldn’t weigh 600kg anymore.

219

Thanks tim👍. Less than I thought, but 134 kg is still huge in F1 terms.

220

Correct James, one of my biggest gripes is how overweight and cumbersome the cars have become. They just don’t look as nimble and alive as they used to.

221

They look like battle ships. And require a similar crew to operate. Luckily, we the sheeple can get used to anything.

222

Agree Nick.

I used to think that a 500kg car with 6/700 Bhp sounded intimidating. But one has to admire how some of today’s drivers can drive these heavy beasts with such elegance, and skill.

223

I miss the agility and “aliveness too. The current cars look more LMP cars in terms of their behaviour out on the track.

224

Montoya held that record for a good 15 years.

I wonder if it will last another 15?

225

Ahh Montoya, who can forgett him, he was a interesting character.

He’s surly missed now, especially in this crowd. And the engines as well!

And it will probably last for a long time. Long into the Formula E era approaching and all other things electric.

226

@Chris D, yes! Interesting character indeed. He even managed to make the recent episode of “Beyond the grid” worth listening to.

227

Nothing is going electric. Electric is just a vanity project for the likes of Musk and Agag, and is as removed from reality as the Church of Scientology.

228

Heretic!

The Church Of All Things Electric is very real. And since you and I are forced to pay for it, it will live on for quite a while, untill we’re broke.

229

That’s a legend!

230

Kimi the legend that is.

Montoya was a legend in his own way though.

Just like the engines and cars from that era that not just anyone could drive, at least not fast.

Today’s cars and drivers will be known for cruising around in circles.

231

Ferrari: what is the point of “putting more pressure” on to a guy [Vettel] who CANNOT handle pressure??

I believe it will be the youngster Leclerc who cracks first under Ferrari pressure. It’s not everyone who can cope with that storm.

232

It will be a race of who cracks first.

233

Ohh, part 2 and it isn’t even Christmas. There goes my prediction out of the window. Lets start with Merc. I am impressed by Ham due to his consistency and brilliant qualifying. He really has shown what you need to become a champion in F1. (Well a good car will help too ofc). Bot was a bit of disappointment to me, expected him to do better during the season. Fer, can Vet handle the pressure, not sure. I think though he has enormous talent and just needs to get ‘points greedy’, meaning that even when things go a bit wrong, get the points for 3th or 4th and realize that you can still win the championship. Rai, best wing man in the field I guess. Good to see he still can do it and even a victory! RB, a strange season for them as a team. Lots of DNF’s etcetera, but also a lot of podiums. Ver versus Ric, well I think Ric was wise to go to Ren. When Ver get’s his act a bit more together where would Ric be ? Ren and Haas, not much to say about them, agree mostly with the piece above. One thing though, where did it all go ‘wrong’ for Sai?

234

Bottas’ performance this year illustrates the chasm between very good and perennial once in a generation talent. Worryingly, toto and co find it necessary bolster his rapidly deteriorating psyche. Formula one, like any professional sport is predominantly mental. Being emotionally stable often yields more performance than sim work, upgrades or practice. Even the 4x champ is hoping lewis blasts off into space, allowing him the opportunity to match his children hero of winning for the scuderia.

235

Hamilton is a well deserving WDC his performance particularly in the 2nd half of the season was utterly exceptional and a class above . Bottas really must sharpen up his act or face losing his seat to Ocon or perhaps even Russell for 2020.

Ferrari have brought Leclerc in to give him a much needed kick up the backside and take Seb out of his comfort zone.

I think he became too comfortable with Kimi as a team mate and a team mate who can give him a run for his money may lead him to focus more . If Seb doesn’t perform well against Leclerc he’ll be out of Maranello imo.

Kimi has improved a great deal since 2014 and i’m glad he got the pole in Italy and the win in the US I think he deserved that for his efforts in helping Ferrari go from being 1.5- 2 seconds of the pace in 2014 to being right on Mercedes Benz pace in 2018.

Given that Kimi is Ferrari’s most recent polesitter , race winner and WDC the Tifosi will be expecting a great deal from the young man Leclerc . I hope he can prove himself worthy and up to the task . Kimi has handed Charles the baton and lets hope he can give Vettel a decent run for his money and not crumble under pressure . Your mission should you choose to accept it Charles is to show the world you are a future WDC.

Given next year’s driver pairings I think Ferrari look have an overall stronger pairing for the WCC than Mercedes but LH is still the best driver . The Ferrari drivers imo will end up squabbling and take points off each other gift wrapping LH the WDC as Bottas won’t challenge LH. Bottas is the Merc weak link and I would predict a Ferrari WCC win next year with LH winning the WDC.

Max had terrible start to the season and DR easily had upper hand up to Monaco but after that Max had the upper hand . DR’s season started well but fell away after Monaco with Dan struggling to beat MV on pace most of the time and poor reliability.

Max clearly has a lot of ability but there a clearly a few rough edges particularly regarding temperament that he must sort out if he is to reach LH level .

Max due to fact he was brought in F1 at 17 never got time to learn his craft in the lower categories . He’s had to learn on the job in F1 and that is not easy.

Whilst I hope Honda can pull a rabbit out of the hat for next year I don’t think much will change in the few years for RBR. Max will probably win a few races on less power sensitive circuits but to win the title I think he will have to hope Ferrari or Merc come calling .

Max should easily beat Gasly next year – Pierre is his mate and will probably be happy to support MV if needed. If RBR can’t take Max to the title by the end of 2020 they will sell up imo.

At Renault I believe the signing of Ricciardo is major boost to them . Ricciardo is a proven race winner and has scored many podium placings in his career. Hulk for all his talent has still yet achieve a podium after all this time .

I think Renault signed Ricciardo because Sainz didn’t deliver to level expected and maybe there has been a realisation talented though Hulk is solid and reliable at scoring points he is not a good enough lead driver for a team that wants to contend for wins and titles.

Haas -well they really should have finished 4th in the WCC but the pit disasters of Melbourne , 2 inexcusable and avoidable technical DSQ’s and numerous driver mistakes particularly from Grosjean in the first 8 races of the season where RG failed to score any points . Any other team who had a car that good would have sacked a driver mid season not retained him for next season for such a bad season start.

K-Mag is a mixed bag sometimes his aggression pays off and he has a brilliant race and other times he gets involved in needless incident and he still lacks quite a bit of maturity imo despite having decent enough racing experience.

I’m really not impressed Gene/Guenther have decided to retain this line up for 2019 – to me it shows no ambition at all. I almost get the impression those drivers will have a job there for as long as they want it.

I think Haas will stagnate compared to the likes of Sauber with Raikkonen and Renault with Ricciardo . Think this year was probably the best chance they’ll ever get to finish top 4 in the WCC and they messed up.

236

You really got it ST, no need to pull out your fishing gear

As you so well pointed out Kimi has it all: latest win, latest pole, latest World Champion for Ferrari

And as if that wasn’t enough he has the fastest pole lap in F1 history

If that wasn’t pressure enough for Seb, Ferrari would apply the rest

But of course he must deal with it, as anyone that has tried his luck at Maranello. Not so easy by the looks of it

237

Chris D might I ask why you presume Vettel will be the Ferrari drive in 2019 because I think not and why you think Vettel should be entitled to No1 status from Melbourne regardless of CL16’s speed and performance? You still haven’t answered that question.

238

Politics at Ferrari is a curious thing. Things can change faster than you expect.

Some drivers have dabbled with it just to end up with niente. WDC:s came and went, with nothing to show for. To confuse some pantomim theater with the other or to think they have the tools to handle it after graduating from a drink company’s version of it might be easy. However very few did deliver despite very strong backing coming in. How many have been there to stay for long?

Seb will not have unlimited time to deliver. I believe he knows that better than anyone. The same will apply to CL.

CL will not be a WDC when he arrives, but has strong backing inside and outside the team I would say.

That wont guarantee anything though, so let’s wait and see

The question you should ask yourself is how you can be so sure of anything when it comes to the state of affairs and what will come out of it

Just one thing to consider among many. They have a Team principal or Managing Director as he was appointed if you will, who’s said he’s still disappointed of the boards decision. And was then possibly looking for other challenges like Juventus. This is not a man that is a noob when it comes to intra-team battles and politics, very much to the contrary. There could hardly be anyone more experienced.

Kimi will not be missed by him alone but he was much beloved by the whole team, and will surely be missed for many reasons. Not only because of his personality but for what he’s delivered for them in terms of a WCD and developing a very good car among others and for a extended period of time.

So just enjoy the show, maybe your’re wishes might come true and may the best come out of it

239

Chris D. I find myself agreeing with this. Ferrari is no finishing school. The pressure is far higher (along with the pay cheque) than any other team. It isn’t simply a racing team, it’s the embodiment of Italy.

Seb isn’t michael, too error prone and lacks the ability to tests endlessly. A big boon to the work horse German.

240

I get a kick out of Renault. It seems like every year for the past five, they say they know what the deficit in power on their PU is, ‘and it should be no problem to correct this by next year.’ I think they should stop talking and just get on with the job.

241

They’ve only been a works team for two years.
Feels like they are putting the infrastructure in place to get on with the job now.

242

Exe, putting aside your trolling at the beginning..(you relly need to get over that one little joke i made)

Firstly, seeing your comment about a whole nation of people being deformed as a “little joke” demonstrates very clearly what sort of person you are. A lot of the rest of the world has realised that comments like that have absolutely no place in modern society. Given that you’re the sort of person to casually make those sort of statements (and find such enjoyment in them) it also calls to question where some of your deep rooted hatred of Lewis comes from. Is it just the Enlgish? Black people? Both? More than that? At the very best it’s narrow minded bigotry.

“get over it”? It didn’t bother me in the slightest sweetcheeks, I’m just going to continue to repeat it so others are aware what sort of person you are. It doesn’t take much to realise that if you’re the sort of person to make such sweeping deplorable statements, you’re more than likely capable of saying similar about people of another nationality, or sex, or race, or religion…

As for the trolling comment, ha haa, CLASSIC. It’s not trolling, you genuinely can’t see past the end of your nose. The evidence on here is overwhelming.

At least we got to see you admit Lewis was the better driver this season.

243

Exe…when you’re (off topic) cutting and pasting comments from one strand to another, when you’re extending a cricket field sledge about having 11 fingers to calling me a racist and a biggot….you’re trolling…
Whatever your obsession with me is…it’s time for you to move on.
You clearly are bothered and are doing nothing other than highlighting to anyone that reads your rubbish what a limelight seeker you are.
To the other posters here that i respectfully engage with (even when we don’t agree), and actually have a sense of humour that is larger than their ego, i look forward to many more chats in the the new year.
Best wishes,
LaKerFourEyes

244

@ LKFE exceptionally well said. You have my full support.

245

riffraff,

I am calling for Renault to make a big leap 2019. On PUs. On tricks. On loophole exploits.

That FIA chap is in full effect now at Renault, and what will happen will be impressive.

I wonder if FIA scrutinize the engine mode software or if teams have carte blanche on that? If this guy saw the software too, oh boy. Can you spell USB key? 🙂

246

No USB…he would have just used twitter…

247

“On tricks” – they certainly have form in that area 😉

248
søren christensen

KMag had, all in all, a very impressive season. Purely down to team errors, lost about 20 points. But still, he and Haas deserves a lot of admiration for their 5 th team placing in points and Kmags share of 56.

That Grosjean was able to dig himself out of a seemingly never ending swamp of errors in the first part of season, also must command huge respect from everyone.

RoGro is perhaps the best 1 lap wonder in the business, next to Hamilton, but his race craft was not quite up to the game… all year.. Very good, he improved a lot, and Haas chose to keep this dynamic, experienced duo for 2019 and 20

249

MERCEDES

Lewis not only dominated Bottas (again) but dominated the competition and especially Vettel his only rival for the WDC. Yes, Bottas did experience some rotten luck and was ordered to surrender a sure win to his team mate but he seems to lack confidence and a ‘killer instinct’ which is needed to be a top line driver. Being Lewis’ team mate is probability the toughest gig in F1 and as he said himself he’s going to treat every race next year like it’s his last. With Ocon being kept on he will likely be the one to partner Lewis in 2020 if Bottas doesn’t meet the KPIs Toto will no doubt set for him.

RED BULL

A tale of two seasons in one for Max and Daniel. Ricc had a promising season until Monaco and thereafter it was all downhill with reliability issues and grid penalties. Max easily won the qualifying head-to-head and after a mistake riddled first 5 races came on strong after Monaco with wins and podiums and showed what he’s capable of however risk was not always balanced with reward as evidenced by Brazil. The final points difference probability flattered Max somewhat but no doubt he had the better season. Their success going forward depends on the competitiveness of what Renault and Red Bull can give them.

FERRARI

Vettel had the car to compete for the WDC and reliability wasn’t an issue. So what happened? A mistake riddled campaign brought about somewhat by Lewis’ mind games in my opinion. Personally I can’t see him winning a championship while Lewis is on the grid and all things being equal. PREDICTION: If he implodes again or gets beaten by LeClerc he’ll want out of his final year of contract. Good to see Kimi, the most ego-less driver on the grid, get probably the last win of his career. He’s off to Sauber in a completely relaxed state of mind, if that’s even more possible than he has now.

250

What was so great about RIC‘s season up until Monaco??

AUS – outqualified, finished in front due to VER spin

BAH – qualified in front due to VER mistake, retired in race

CHI – outqualified, finished in front due to VER error

AZB – qualified in front, both crashing together later

ESP – outqualified and finished 5th with a podium for VER.

MON – qualified in fron due to VER mistake, won because RB superior and no place to pass.

251

Thats hilarious. Max better than Dan as a result of Dan’s crashing and errors?

252
Folkert Eggenkamp

Not sure what your point is, Max was better because he beats Dan since Spa 2016, Dan might not crash as much, but he is not as fast or good as Max either.

253

Ridiculous. Dan qualified in front of Max in every session at Monaco before Max stuffed up in P3. Dan won Monaco. Dan owns Monaco.

254

There is a common theme in the races you mention and that is a VER spin/mistake/error. So the basis of your argument is to discredit Dan’s performance because Max made mistakes. Not sure how you can imply Max was the better driver through this period when he was making so many mistakes. Surely, this suggests Dan was driving better at this time of the season.

255

@Bryan, you miss the point.

Why is it that RIC was always behind VER? Just think about if VER didn’t make those mistakes.

It was never in RIC’s hands. He was depended on mistakes by VER.

256

@Adrian.

I am not talking down RIC’s achievments. The same as I don’t say VER beat RIC this year because he had more points.

The leaderboard only tells one side of the story.

You must look at every single race and see what happend.

Then you’ll (hopefully) see that in most races since they became teammates, VER is the leading driver on track. And no matter how you look at it, this is a bad thing for RIC.

257

Andre

So let’s see: Ricciardo’s achievements up to Monaco are not really that great because of Max’s errors. You talk down Dan by highlighting Max’s errors. Is that how it goes. What a bizarre way to prove a point. Similarly Rosberg didn’t deserve to get the WDC in ’16 because of Lewis’ engine failures. You sound like Folkert when he says that Dan didn’t win on “merit” against Max in ’17 because of Max’s engine troubles. So by that logic can we conclude that Max’s first win in Spain in ’16, where the two Mercs crashed out in the first corner, was equally without merit? To be consistent we have to say yes Max did not win Spain on merit. Doesn’t sound fair does it but that’s the way you want to present an argument.

258

What was so great about RIC‘s season up until Monaco??

Andre

Please read my post again because I never said that Ricc had a “great” season up to Monaco but rather that he had a “promising season until Monaco”.

But if you want to crunch the numbers that matter lets do so:

As of Monaco Ricc had 2 wins 72 points, 1 pole and the fastest lap time ever recorded at the circuit (certainly that I’m aware of), out qualified Max 3 times, had 2 retirements and sat 3rd in the championship.

As of Monaco Max had 0 wins, 35 points, 0 poles, out qualified Dan 3 times, 2 retirements and sat 6th in the championship.

It’s a disingenuous way to argue a point by talking down a driver’s achievements by bringing to prominence the failures of his team mate.

Having said all that, and on balance, post Monaco Max had victories and numerous poles which demonstrates his enormous talent as a driver.

259

Oh the ol’ scoreboard…

He out qualified him why?

260

@Adrian: To be fair Max mistakes have been put underneath a loop and exaggerated till death. Dan’s mistakes have been ignored mostly because he is not as intersting as Max.
Spainnish crash in FP1, Spain spin in the race, crash in Baku, Crash in lap 1 of Hungarian race, crash with Bottas in the same race.
Last year he had 2 Q3 crashes and one lucky escape with the wall in Monaco. Had contact with Magnussen in Monza, with Magnussen and Vandoorne in Brazil, off road in Silverstone. A lot has been ignored and Max is not as error prone as people think. And on the other side it is Max who has better starts, better races, better qualifies, better/riskier overtakes.

Max sucked during the first 6 races, but he was testing the limit. He wanted to much and that cost him. He learned and beat everybody except Hamilton since the summer break.

261

Andre

Cos Dan is not as mistake prone as Max that’s why.

Tell ya what mate instead of trying to minimise Dan’s achievements why don’t you tell us how Max faired during the first 6 races and in so doing don’t make excuses for him along the lines of well he was just testing the limits.

262

Permit me to respond!

AUS – Outqualified due to grid penalty; RIC finished ahead by not making a mistake like VER;

BAH – Outqualified VER by not making a mistake in qualifying. Retired very early due to car fault;

CHI – Outqualified, but only just after the team had to work double time to get RIC out into qualifying with 2min to go. Finished in front of VER – and everyone else – by overtaking other cars for position and not making a mistake;

AZB – Qualified in front, and was quicker in the race before VER used a dubious blocking manoeuvre and took them both out of the race. The team made RIC share the blame, though, despite not employing similar questionable tactics.

ESP – Outqualified by 0.002s and finished 5th with a podium for VER. Meh, it happens sometimes.

MON – RIC fastest in all practice sessions and made no mistakes. Led from start to finish despite nursing a crippled car. Track position, can’t overtake blah blah blah but there would have been many drivers that would have either cracked, ended in the barriers or parked up. Like VER, who made an unforced error in practice and had to sit out qualifying…

263

You must look at the big picture…

In general when VER doesn’t make a mistake RIC finishes behind him. That was already the case last year.

That’s not good for your CV.

Someday you’ll understand it…

264

I think the key point that made his performance better than his teammate’s was the the ‘Verstappen error’ in each case! To finish first, first you have to finish…

265

True of course, but in the end it is a bad sign for RIC.

266

RBR are using Honda next year

267

To be fair to Seb the pressure on his shoulders was a lot to take. However they should have kept both drivers in the contention from the start. And yes the decision to change driver line-up was right if you consider the fact that Kimi was never going to be a good No 2 driver.

This is the conundrum for Ferrari. More pressure is not what Seb needs. Maybe that will ease of though next year. If they still have a car to compete with at the top that is.

How is one to read the comments from Toto that Bottas would have been a title contender would it not have been for his tyre blowout? Was that where they put all the eggs at the other car? Only Toto and a few others will know the answer to that, but why did he want to give that away?

Ric signs with another team and then the fortunes change completely. Ric became runner up to Bottas as the most unfortunate driver of the year. Mexico was not to script so tantrums were expected. Let’s hope Honda gives them a PU that will allow Max to finally have a go at the WDC. Then we’ll also get rid of the still young he’ll learn tag at last. The other scenario could be an implosion at RB. That will show weather Ric made the right decision. Maybe in his mind he already did.

Magnussen is one that keeps improving. Grosjean past his best already.

Sainz not only negated by RB, but Hulk as well.

268

Chris D why are so desperate for Leclerc to be Vettel’s no2 driver ? Also please explain why you think Vettel’s team mate should not be entitled to challenge him? Ferrari have lost faith in Vettel for good reason. You can’t just assume that Vettel will be be their main challenger next year. To reign in Leclerc if he has capability to challenge would be an utterly ridiculous With respect Chris D I think your comment is grossly naive .

Also as far as Ferrari are concerned the priority for them has always been the WCC the drivers is secondary as far they are concerned -always has always will be. Ferrari have gone out to the WCC next year -that is their priority. Any WDC glory is a bonus. he problem is Vettel has not been put under enough consistent pressure by Kimi . Seb is driving for Ferrari he MUST be expected to deal with extreme pressure at Maranello . Seb must deal with it .

269

@Stephen

Yes, we constantly hear the WcC narrative about Ferrari, but is that really the case? It’s been twenty years now that they’ve had a number 1 / number 2 driver policy and have fiddled with results of countless races in that time… doesn’t really sound like a team that’s super focused on the WCC to me. Look at the first half of 2019 when Kimi was short changed numerous times in qualifying, races, strategy. Arguably they screwed the selves by focusing on the WDC.

270

Stephen Taylor have you really watched a race in F1?

Ferrari going not only first but only for WCC? Really, that’s news for most people I believe. Or should I just call it naive, what you say?

Well only time will tell about LeClerc, Hope he gets to compete and can deliver as well. But that would be a new way to go about their business when it comes to the Red team in the modern era. No need to look at fortune cookies, just look at the recent decades.

Kimi is quite unique in his approach to this. Never seems to care about a number one status. But I guess you haven’t missed all the other number one drivers at Ferrari in recent decades. It’s not like it’s a big secret, so there you go. They might have lost their faith in Seb though, who knows. Let’s hope he can cope with the pressure, LeClerc as well.

Time will tell so watch a race and enjoy.

271

Firstly your original comment on this conversation referred directly to what Ferrari so to criticise me for the same thing is odd.

Secondly before you doubt my assertion that Vettel didn’t want Kimi to stay read this from before Leclerc was promoted.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/137524/no-rush-for-leclerc-to-join-ferrari–vettel

Schumacher and Alonso had great political sway because they maximised their equipment – Vettel hasn’t.

272

i believe you meant to say that I referred to what Ferrari are thinking

No I didn’t, just you. Read again.

273

Well only time will tell about LeClerc, Hope he gets to compete and can deliver as well. But that would be a new way to go about their business when it comes to the Red team in the modern era. No need to look at fortune cookies, just look at the recent decades.

Well if you look at Ferrari’s drivers in recent history not one of them were quite so young – that in itself to extent has already broken the mould of long standing Ferrari traditions of not going for drivers 23 and under . Arrivabene would prefer CL16 to be number 2 because naturally it is easier for him to manage . I think Arrivabene has had to have strong persuasion from John Elkann to accept Leclerc’s as he was more keen probably to keep KR. CL16’s move to Maranello as well as the continued investment in the Ferrari Driver Academy shows that Ferrari will not only be willing to promote good enough youngsters but make into WDC’s as well. If the Ferrari driver academy is purely being used to develop a number 2 driver then all thqt investment and time . My worry for Leclerc if he ends up being forced into being a number 2 then then he won’t be able to step up to the plate as a full time and absolute no 1 . They must allow Charles Leclerc’s development to occur naturally if that makes Seb unhappy so be it – he can leave Ferrari/ go on sabbatical . Seb must rise to this new challenge or his career in F1 will be finished

274

“Ferrari have lost faith in Vettel” … that’s kind of an interesting take… why do you say that?

“the priority for them has always been the WCC” … please, not that old chestnut again. Its simple logic that Ferrari will maximize their efforts towards whichever championship is most likely / most achievable. Ideally both, but otherwise their strategy is dynamic and will reflect the prospects and choices available in given championship context.

275

I disagree about Vettel being Ferrari’s best bet in the short term to me he has proven himself an unworthy failure . If Vettel wants to achieve another title he will have to leave Ferrari. The smart money is on Leclerc to give Seb a very hard time next season.

276

He was second in the championship. Sure, he underperformed, but its harsh to call him an “unworthy failure”.

But more importantly: Who would you have in his place then?

277

I said Ferrari have lost faith in Vettel because Vettel was clearly all for Kimi staying on at Ferrari not for Charles to be promoted stating there was no rush for CL16 to move to Maranello . Had Ferrari had real faith in him they would imo even had Marchioonne been alive respected Seb’s wishes. Losing his best mate from the team and having a young upstart replace him will not please him at all . If Vettel’s political position within the team was much stronger had he proven himself capable of delivering the maximum possible results with such a privilege as keeping his ‘ideal’ team mate like Schumacher and Alonso previously.

278

You are mistaken for a few simple facts alone if nothing else.

First of all you make the simple mistake to believe you know what Seb really wants and for what reason.

Second you believe that Seb or anyone else could decide their future team mates at Ferrari. Ultimately no one has.

Third you confuse the previous situations. You can’t compare Shumi with Alo, not in any way. Alo came in with a ultimate No one claim, that much can be said. But that comes with a ultimate counterclaim. Delivering, ultimately a WDC. That was possible but never materialized.

Not even necessary to mention Alo did come out of it whit less than nothing.

On top of that I would not speculate too much about what people think, especially ones that has past away.

Wishful thinking though is fine, when you have such strong convictions in what your favourite driver is capable of.

So keep cheering on

279

Point well made Stephen. I think you are right, that the Leclerc hedge (sought by Marchionne) has probably unsettled and undermined Seb somewhat. But nonetheless, I suspect that within the team the expectation is still that if they are to win a WC, it will be Vettel delivering it. At least in the short term…

280

To reign in Leclerc if he has capability to challenge would be an utterly ridiculous

Trying to reign in a super fast young charger against an established star, also known in the trade as the “Alonso Doctrine”.

281

Yes the ‘Alonso Doctrine’ is outdated.

282

Stephen Taylor

I wouldn’t be worried about CL’s position in Ferrari though. He will get his chance to deliver I believe.

283

Haas
KMAG impressive and happier at Haas
Grosjean the whinging French Foodie with his mobile artisan Foodie van in tow. A World Champion at Hissy Fits and Gloves throwing. Happier at Haas the French man said …”I sink not !!!” , as Albert Camus said “zee noose around my neck is heavy!” and “my loverrr does not like my unpasteurised dessert. I wear my sadness heavy like an uncooked leg of mutton!” To which Steiner said “GROW UP GROSJEAN OR FEEL ZEE BACK OF MY HAND ! JA !” 😂

Renault
Yep Hulks but he is in for a rude awakening when Redemption Ricci enters the fray.
Sainz was unlucky at times with car issues and but had some good battles on track. Mclaren will I hope be a better move if the num nuts sack the management chuck the Bahraini mafia out and get someone like Aldo Costa on board after his gardening leave is done.

Red Bull
Yep Max finally sorted his tantrums and drove some great races to victory….’wait a minute !’ as “Fog Horn Leg Horn” says Yep the tantrums have not gone away yet.
Redemption Ricci had great races too but the Baku incident was the pinch that made Ricci decide to leave Dr.Marko evil empire ‘Max love in’. But you have to give credit to Max he drove his car like a champion in waiting.

Ferrari
Vettel drove well. But he lacks proper dog fight one on one skills. When his back is against the wall he tightens up and looses his confidence. Or just messes up in the wet. Ferrari will if he falters put more favour towards Leclerc. They did a similar thing when Kimi decided to coast and put all their eggs in Massa’s basket. Vettel in 2018 just wasn’t in the league to compete with Lewis.
Kimi in Monza was told he no longer was required at Ferrari. Before the race. That was a strategic mind bomb. Kimi then drove for himself ad actually started to better Vettel. The subtle Ferrari pit strategy that always favoured Vettel didn’t help Kimi either. But yes Vettel is the top dog at Ferrari in 2018. Ferrari had a World Champion winning car but just didn’t have the driver to get it to the ticker tape finish.

Mercedes
Yep Lewis 5 times Champion🏁🔱. Top Dog and drove supremely. The Singapore Qualifying Pole lap is still amazing to watch. Tight track big car …top draw performance. Monza also great drive and then the
overtake on Vettel in Russia. Didn’t taper off in the final races either.
Bottas you cannot knock him. At times he was told to drive a defensive strategy to hold station . I thought he did a great job. He will be back on form in 2019.
But Lewis had the talent to get back on top even when the car wasn’t performing.
Toto Wolf and Mercedes team on all 3 sites deserve a big round of applause for doing a great job once again 👏👏

Tiny d Sbkkk and the hooded clans of Red necks will be lighting their Tikki Torches and marching to a Waffle joint for some brotherly love in. Just remember to bring the K.Y.Jelly😮😣.
😄😂😂

284

Is school over for the holidays in your part of the world? Must be as you seem to have lots of time on your hands to type all this drivel.